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1 ================== Subj: Re:Puppy Training Classes Date: 96-10-31 16:46:38 EST From: DrFASTTALK We have been doing them for 1 year. We currently limit size of class to 8 puppys. The class goes on for 8 weeks and is for puppies 9-14 weeks of age at the begining of the class. We use positive methods on all exercises except for controled walking, which I have been unable to do totally positively. I am attending the American Pet Dog Trainers meeting next week in Phoenix and hope to come back with a positive method for that exercise also. Mona ================== Subj: spraying cat Date: 96-10-31 18:53:19 EST From: Losassodvm I'm sure you guys have beaten this subject to death, but I have to ask the question anyway. A 1 year old, neutered male, in a brand new house, has chosen to urinate on the carpet. U/A normal. Owner added a litter box in that room, so he changed rooms. Getting ready to start Elavil. What would work better? What is the best current text on inappropriate elimination behavior in small animals? Thanks for the help. Mike ================== Subj: sudden aggression Date: 96-10-31 19:55:47 EST From: Nogutz I have a two year old MN cat that is an indoor/outdoor cat. In August, the owners acquired a new cat, and the two have never gotten along, although he reports that they are getting better. Recently (within the last two-three weeks), the old cat has just been walking around growling and he'll just swat at the owner without provocation. Also, the cat sits by the door growling until he can be let out. Physical exam is completely normal. Is this a delayed response to the introduction of the new cat? I suggested bloodwork, but the owner declined. Is there anything else I can do, therapeutically or diagnostically? Angela ================== Subj: A new puppy Date: 96-10-31 20:16:17 EST From: RonK23 As a vet I have occasion to run into many unwanted puppies. One day I examined a pup that was about 4 1/2 months old and had 2 rubber bands around his tail, in an effort to dock it perhaps (?!), and I had to amputate the tail, after which the "new" owner never picked him up, and now I have him. He is now about 5 months old and is 22 #. I see some shepherd, terrier, and who knows what else. He is black and tan and white. I am wondering about possible behavioral problems as I have a small child and do not fully know this dog's history. He may have been abused, and I am not seeing much in the way of aggression yet but there have been times when he gets his dander up while we are walking and a stranger approaches. He then proceeds to lick them and jump on them playfully, but he is teething and at times will playfully mouth anyone who puts his hands near him. He had a rawhide bone the other night and when I took it away I thought he may have nipped at me but it may have been his effort to play or to hang on to his toy. I am getting a trainer over to evaluate him. Are there any other recommendations you can make. My child is 3 years old. So far he is totally submissive to me and my family, but he is testing the waters with my cats. Thanks. Faith ================== Subj: Blind pup Date: 96-10-31 20:33:50 EST From: Wet Vet 41 Had a client bring me a 6 wk collie that is blind. She has only had it two days but is already bonding. The dog has a very good disposition - quiet and allows lots of handling. Hearing is ok. I told her i'd ask you guys a couple of questions. Exactly how difficult will it be for this dog to adjust to the house. Owner has four yr and 16 yr old children? Would it help if owner also got a littermate for the household? Thanks Mark ================== Subj: re:training-sight or sound Date: 96-10-31 21:17:38 EST From: M G8S Thanks for taking the time to give me such a complete explanation--I will enjoy relating this to my trainer. He seems to get very good result with food inducement and signal training, and in fact has stated that he would prefer to train deaf dogs as they don't get distracted by our words! Thanks again to both of you! Melissa ================== Subj: anti litter box Date: 96-11-01 14:51:50 EST From: GACVETS I have a 1 year old male neutered DSH that has never had a problem using the litter box. Several weeks ago the owners let him outside, now he is urinating in the basement, on the rugs upstairs, and defecating all over the house. This activity started after they the owners decided to restrict his activity to the inside of the house. He is now doing this despite the fact that they let him go outside occaisionally. He is not spraying on vertical surfaces. They have tried everything as I gave them a litterbox blues handout. Oh incidentally they don't have any small rooms in the house to confine him. thankyou very much jimbob ================== Subj: Re:Multiple Cat household Date: 96-11-02 10:03:23 EST From: IlanaR Doctor P - One tool that helps is confinement of the aggressor in some kind of cage/"kitty condo" with controlled exposure to the fearful cat, who has free run. But in my experience this type of problem is too complicated (meaning, too many significant nuances that emerge in the history and which can be modified in treatment) to be done justice in a brief format like this. Any chance of referral for them? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Over-Protective Aggression Date: 96-11-02 10:04:57 EST From: IlanaR Dan- Are the owners doing anything else at this point, other than drug therapy? Do you know what's worked, and maybe what hasn't worked? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Strange behavior Date: 96-11-02 10:05:53 EST From: IlanaR LDCVCA - The main question I have here is whether the thrusting/humping seems to occur spontaneously, or whether the dog masturbates first (licking or any imaginitive form of self-stimulation)? If it's the latter, I'd concentrate a little more on things like eliciting/coinciding circumstances, interrupting the behavior, increased control, counterconditioning, etc. If the former, I'd think a little more about pathological causes of priapism/stimulation including preputial irritation. Maybe the owners can start keeping the ubiquitously useful diary, keep track for a week or two, and then consult with you (in a paid appt). Is there ejaculation? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Licking carpet Date: 96-11-02 10:06:48 EST From: IlanaR Lynda - I hope Gary has some thoughts to add here. This is a relatively common complaint, believe it or not. Unfortunately, I don't know of any established or agreed cause. I used to have an Aussie mix that would occasionally (once every few months) lick rather frantically at carpets and upholstery - she couldn't really be distracted from it, and repeatedly swallowed. I was a vet student at the time and worked her up pretty thoroughly for esophageal obstruction. It tended to stop spontaneously. It also happens to be a *commonly* described behavior (anecdotally only) in geriatric patients. My guess now is that (when seen persistently and repeatedly) it's either a pathologically driven compulsive behavior disorder or a seizure disorder. I would still rule out GI dz. Pica is unlikely because there's no ingestion (right?). You might, after doing a baseline workup, try an anxiolytic to start with, keeping in mind the unlikely caveat that TCA's (eg amitriptyline or clomipramine) can lower seizure thresholds. If no help and the behavior persists, consider an antiobsessional (again, keeping in mind close monitoring is imp. in case it's seizure-based). For the record a neuro exam incl. cranial nerves would be a good idea, perhaps with a barium swallow for upper GI. Gary, any ideas? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Humping Date: 96-11-02 10:07:32 EST From: IlanaR Dave - In this dog's case I'd consider dominance over anything else - again, assuming all is normal on physical exam. You could do some broader diagnostics and make sure her sex hormone profile is normal, including baseline and GnRH /HCG challenge, but that's a bit of a zebra in a world of horses. So - diary time again - just when exactly is her little pelvis set ablaze? What circumstances? - one example that would emerge from a diary is that mounting occurs when the two owners are hugging each other (or worse :)) and ignoring the dog. Similar circumstances would be anything that upsets/stresses the dog from a dominance-status point of view. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Post ovh spraying Date: 96-11-02 10:08:37 EST From: IlanaR Rob - I second Gary's post. Except for its obvious and permanent systemic effects, I doubt the ovh was involved in the behavior change. Instead of thinking of this as a "change" I'd tend to think of it as a "development" - just as with dogs, behavior in cats changes quite a lot at puberty or immed postpuberty, and the aggression and spraying seem to have coincided with that most delightful of behavioral seasons, the cat breeding season, so there may be input from neighborhood cats, estrus, tomcats spraying, etc. As Gary pointed out, spraying in female cats does occur, at approx. a 1 in 20 rate according to one published report. If this cat was surrounded by male kittens in the uterus there's also the influence of prenatal testosterone washing, which would increase the odds (maybe-- on the other hand, it could be that Hart's figure of 5% corresponds with the %age of female fetuses (feti?) surrounded by males, etc.). Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Puppy Training Classes Date: 96-11-02 10:09:33 EST From: IlanaR Mona - I'm jealous that you're going to the APDT conference. Please let us know what you learn there - have a great time :) Ilana (where's it going to be next year?) ================== Subj: Re:spraying cat Date: 96-11-02 10:11:41 EST From: IlanaR Mike - Do you have access to the VIN database services on the opening screen? If you do, you'll find a lot of information in there by doing a search with the words cat urination, or litter box, etc. Unless you feel the urination is caused by some stress or anxiety or that it is clearly a marking behavior, there is probably nothing to be gained by using an anxiolytic/sedative drug. I would concentrate first on the mantra of (a) increase attractiveness of boxes (more, better, cleaner, etc.) and (b) decrease attractiveness of carpet. Let us know if the database isn't accessible to you. As far as good current texts, try Readings in Companion Animal Behavior by (eds) Voith and Borchelt, pub. by Veterinary Learning Systems. Also there's a new book due any time now by Dr. Karen Overall - I think the title is something like "Clinical Behavioral Medicine", to be pub. by Mosby. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:sudden aggression Date: 96-11-02 10:12:31 EST From: IlanaR Angela - This behavior shift isn't uncommon (how's that for a non-committal phrase?) in cats. It could be perfectly normal behavioral reflecting temperament/territorial status and any ongoing conflict with the new cat, or it could reflect some pathology - the latter is less likely, though. Aggressiveness is very nonspecific and can be caused by almost *any* physical problem: pain, discomfort, organ disease/dysfunction, viral or other infectious dz, anything from pruritus to parasites. I think a work-up is a good idea, and would at least start with a min. database including urine (and warn owner that, if wnl, there could still be a problem). If at least the obvious are ruled out, then I'd say the stimuli are shared between the presence of the new cat, and the cat's exposure to the outdoors. Therapeutically I'd say the door is open, because the diagnosis is unclear. At the very least they might consider making him an indoor cat and perhaps even consider rehoming the new cat? Anything beyond that would benefit from a more detailed history. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:A new puppy Date: 96-11-02 10:13:15 EST From: IlanaR Angela - This behavior shift isn't uncommon (how's that for a non-committal phrase?) in cats. It could be perfectly normal behavioral reflecting temperament/territorial status and any ongoing conflict with the new cat, or it could reflect some pathology - the latter is less likely, though. Aggressiveness is very nonspecific and can be caused by almost *any* physical problem: pain, discomfort, organ disease/dysfunction, viral or other infectious dz, anything from pruritus to parasites. I think a work-up is a good idea, and would at least start with a min. database including urine (and warn owner that, if wnl, there could still be a problem). If at least the obvious are ruled out, then I'd say the stimuli are shared between the presence of the new cat, and the cat's exposure to the outdoors. Therapeutically I'd say the door is open, because the diagnosis is unclear. At the very least they might consider making him an indoor cat and perhaps even consider rehoming the new cat? Anything beyond that would benefit from a more detailed history. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Blind pup Date: 96-11-02 10:14:02 EST From: IlanaR Mark - Blind dogs generally do great, and I would think in this puppy's case adjustment isn't even the proper word because of the congenital (?) blindness - having to go through all of its development without sight I'd expect it to compensate quite well. It's easier, I think, to raise and manage a blind dog than a deaf one (not that these are equivalent disabilities) because of the owner's ability to use voice for training and control. Baby gates and "puppy proofing" are needed for some things that might not be obvious hazards - ie not just stairwells, but also edges of porches, swimming pools, etc.. I'd obviously allow the puppy to explore every square cm of the house, often, under supervision. Crate-training would be very helpful and probably necessary. They could take advantage of the sense of smell for some markers eg the doorway leading outdoors/indoors could be identified by potpourri. Children might be equipped with a little bell while around the puppy. Toys should have bells. When a little older it would be helpful to keep an indoor lead available for extra control. Outdoors the puppy should be on lead, of course. You asked about getting another dog (another blind littermate?). My canned answer to that, when clients ask, is that they should get another dog only if it's for *them* and not for the resident dog - this puppy doesn't need another, and in fact a second puppy would take quality attention away from this pup, and both would probably be much harder to manage. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Blind pup Date: 96-11-02 14:49:35 EST From: Wet Vet 41 Llana, Thank you for a great response! Mark ================== Subj: Re:Humping Date: 96-11-02 16:36:05 EST From: Barley37 Ilana, Thanks for the ideas on the problem. Since the owners think this is "cute", I doubt they will do anything to follow up on it. I don't recall ever seeing a spayed female do this. I do remember an female with a gigantic clitoris that rode anything it could get its paws around, but this was a first. Thanks again!! ;0) Dave B ================== Subj: Re:Licking carpet Date: 96-11-02 16:36:18 EST From: Gmlandvm I would concur with Ilana's comments - Not much more to offer. The problem/complaint is not infrequent and in those cases in which it resolves spontaneously and then recurs, I've "filed" the problem into a gastrointestinal disturbance - medical disorder category. I also find an increased number of carpet licking, cement licking, and skin licking (of people) in our geriatric population. Could be medical disturbance, CNS disease, or aging related behavior problem - but I always rule out systemic disease including an assessment of electrolytes and screening tests (at least) for Cushing's. A few of my picas and compulsive lickers have turned out to be Cushinoid. Regardless of the initiating cause (stress/anxiety/medical), far too many of these cases are rewarded (either by the owner or the behavior itself), and some become compulsive/stereotypic. My first drug of choice for the latter is clomipramine. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Ativan Date: 96-11-02 16:44:37 EST From: Gmlandvm Seemed to have missed this post earlier - but it showed up now. I don't have a dose for you for lorazepam, perhaps Ilana has more information but lorazepam is a relatively short acting high potency benzodiazepine. I have been very interested in trying it on a few of my cases (especially overly anxious pets for impending situations of anxiety such as a veterinary visit or a scheduled fireworks display), so would appreciate anyone elses experiences with lorazepam. I would suspect that the half life would be too short to be of much value for separation anxiety (except for the actual departure) or for long car rides. You might want to consider alprazolam which would have similar applications but has been used more extensively in cats and dogs. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Inappropiate urination Date: 96-11-02 17:02:45 EST From: Gmlandvm With an 8 year old dog I would still keep an eye out for medical problems or incontinence as a possible initiating factor, but we'll assume for arguement that the granddaughter and associated anxiety is the cause. If this is indeed the case, then behavior therapy would differ very little from that required of a housesoiling puppy. Begin by reestablishing proper elimination areas by accompanying the dog outdoors and gving rewards immediately following elimination. Also consider cue words prior to elimination. Indoors the dog must be supervised at all times. When supervision is not possible, the dog must be confined at the very least away from the previously soiled areas, or perhaps confined to a pen, room or crate (as with puppy housetraining). Odor elimination products (see chapter in the VLS book: Readings in Companion Animal Behavior, by Patrick Melese) must also be utilized. If the problem is related to anxiety, the owner should determine what aspects of the granddaughter's presence are causing the problem. Has the dog's schedule been changed - it's environment disrupted - or is the dog simply anxious about the sights and sounds of a new child. Teach the dog to associate the child's presence with all in life that is positive - treats, play, and affection, and eliminate these rewards when the child is absent. In conjunction with the above, drug therapy might be useful until the dog adapts to the change. I would probably begin with amitriptyline at 2 mg/kg bid provided you are familiar with the adverse effects, contraindications and potential side effects. If ineffective or too many side effects, adjust the dose up or down after a week or so, or consider perhaps a course of benzodiazepines. Gary ================== Subj: Biting Jack Russell Date: 96-11-02 18:15:55 EST From: ANIMALDOC1 We have been seeing a 2 year old neutered Jack Russell terrier since February '96. His first visit was a drop off for his cryptorchid surgery. From the first visit he exhibited behavior problems of trying to bite us and soon found out he had been biting family members. (The last straw to bring him in for neutering was when he bit the husband in the scrotum- ouch!) Family members include husband, wife and young children. He has tried behavior modification with a series of training sessions to no avail. He acts up 20-25% of the time,often acute onset -bites,growls, barks and screams. They have much difficulty traveling with him in the car and cannot have friends over to their home. We tried 5mg of Elavil sid (he is #10.6) on a 2 week trial, but only made him hyperactive and more aggressive per owner (he charges them). They are ready to get rid of him - have him "go to a farm" where he can run free. Any suggestions on other meds. in combination with behavior mod.? Is Prozac a consideration? (Having owner sign release form) - - Thanks, Paula ================== Subj: Separation anxiety(dog) Date: 96-11-02 23:32:14 EST From: POVARAH This is part of a history of a Female (Spayed) Five years, ten months old Labrador x Greyhound Weight: 70 lbs. This behavior has tried being curbed by adding other pets to the house, exercise, desensitizing, valium, elavil and behavior consults. Behavior was exacerbated by the recent death of my clients husband. Jesse's destructive behavior seems to be concentrated on the kitchen. She opens cabinet doors, gets to garbage, pulls out everything in the cabinets and eats and tears up anything she can get her paws on. I've tried putting child proof latches on the doors, she breaks them. I next tried tieing the cabinet doors together and she pulled the door hinges out of the wood. She is getting a mile a day walk, play sessions and I am giving her individual time. She has lots of chew toys, which I rotate so she will not become bored with them. I stuff kongs and hollow bones with cheese and dog bisquits and peanut butter to try to amuse her. In addition she has begun to exhibit aggression and redirected agression towards the other animals in the house. She has started to chase the cats (though she does not hurt them when she catches them). She growls and snaps at the other dogs when they are excited. She growls when she is laying down and another animal walks by. There have been three fights between Jesse and Caitlin(another dog)- I have managed to break up these fights with little damage (blood was drawn from one fight). I've thought about seperating jesse from the other dogs when I am gone but her anxiety seems to increase if she is locked away from the others. I am considering placing a basket muzzle on Jesse to cut down on her acts of destruction and prevent injury to the other animals. However I have read that it is not a good idea to muzzle only one dog in a multidog household and I hate to have to muzzle all of the dogs. If we leave Jesse in our fenced yard she digs under the fence and tries to follow us. If she is tied out she barks continuously. In addition dog theft is a problem and I dare not risk this option. When I am home Jesse is very fixated on me. (This has always been the case) She follows me were ever I go and is usually in physical contact with me. This leaning, and laying on behavior had improved but has worsened once again. My client is open to any suggestions as to treatment for this dog. She does not want to and will not consider euthanization. Behavioral therapy has started once again but is unable to take two weeks, never leaving her alone in the house. She has to go to work and earn the kibble. Jesse cannot accompany her since she grows very excited and anxious in public areas (despite intensive socialization as a puppy). Friends have suggested to her Bach Floral Remedies (A homeopathic floral extract-but I do not know much about these-I am obtaining information about them). Other suggestions have been to change her diet to one which does not contain preservatives and byproducts. She is currently eating a high quality diet of Nutro MAX Lamb and Rice, preserved with Vitamin C. Thank you for reading this long case history and considering our problem. I will appreciate and consider with any suggestions offered. Thanks, Mark ================== Subj: Finding the culprit Date: 96-11-03 16:00:13 EST From: KetchumDoc Hi - I have owner w/ 6 cat household. One or more of the rascals is urinating very sporatically on furniture. Did UA's on all of 'em - a couple had crystalluria and when we changed diet back to Iams the problem is about 80% improved but owners still finding urine about once every 4-6 weeks. I'm sure it is a stress reaction from one of the cats but can't figure out which one(s). I seem to remember you can give fluorocein stain orally as a liquid and use black light to detect which cat is having the problem. Is this safe? What "dosage"? Can you give it daily for the 4-6 weeks it will take to rule out the individual cat? Any other suggestions? Thank you. ================== Subj: Teeth Extraction Date: 96-11-03 16:55:33 EST From: CTVC 4 y/o f/s Wheaton Terrier bit someone who got between her dog and the Wheaton. Although the bite was a hand bite and really not so bad if just so happened that the spouse was an attorney and she collected $ 22,000. The people have been told by the insurance carrier that they will be canceled if they do not get rid of the dog. The dog has no history of aggressive behavior towards people but does towards other dogs. The owner wanted to know about the feasibility of extracting the four canine teeth to prevent the further rare chance of a repeat occurrance even this will not safisfy the insurance company. They can keep the dog but will not be covered if any bite occurs in the future. Thanking you in advance ..... Dennis ================== Subj: Re:Teeth Extraction Date: 96-11-03 21:12:25 EST From: ANDOCWEST dennis, I had a similiar case. The insurance carrier paid the first claim, then cancelled the policy at renewal time. The family has then UNABLE to obtain insurance from a new carrier, even if the family agreed not to be covered for liability from further dog bites. andoc ================== Subj: Aggressive Feline Date: 96-11-03 21:56:13 EST From: MTGOAT10 I have a cat ~2 years old that was of course raised by it's owner since it was about 2 weeks old. The cat is extremly aggresive towards the owner in its home envirnment. Injectable steriods have been used ( DepoProvera) and were ineffective. I heard about prozac and tried a low dose mixed in pet tinic Vitamins (a tablet would be too hard for the client to give) but the cat spits the mixture out. I just heard about liquid prozac but I think it is expensive and I would liketo know how effective it trully is and what kind of side effects in cats. Does anyone have any ideas for this cat the owner loves it dearly and euthanasia would not be an option. ================== Subj: kitten development Date: 96-11-04 01:06:14 EST From: Quiyst A client has a litter of 6 kittens that are now 10 weeks old. The question she has is why these kittens are still suckling. The mother has long been out of milk, but does not discourage the kittens suckling. Secondly, she wants to know if keeping the kittens together for a longer than typical period is okay. She's having trouble finding homes. Is there any benefit or disadvantage to keeping them together so long? Thoughts on the best age for separating kittens? Thanks! ================== Subj: Cats and Electric Cords Date: 96-11-04 15:40:18 EST From: Doctor 738 I have a 1yr 4month old female feline patient who is chewing electric cords, the owner's briefcase, and rattan furniture. We boarded Indy 1 month ago and she chewed her bowls and kitty litter pan. We never saw her do it. The owner does see her do it. I started Indy on valium 3/96, the owner thinks the cat is chewing less. The owner has tried a spray bottle and claims that Indy is very persistant. Should we try another antianxiety drug or more behavior modification. thanks in advance diana ================== Subj: Drooling dog Date: 96-11-04 20:37:44 EST From: Eledvm Sig: 7mo. M Sheltie, 19lbs., presented for drooling/carsickness/vomiting. Was okay at home but drools/vomits during car rides. Was taken back to visit original home and exhibited same signs at that house, even while on Diphenhydramine 50 mg. Nothing significant on physical except VERY wet paws. Wondering if there are behavior modifications/drugs that we can try for this nervous guy. Nothing much in the literature/database. Any suggestions? Thanks, Earmie ================== Subj: Repost Fearful Doxie Date: 96-11-05 02:12:56 EST From: SAHDVM I didn't see a response when I posted this earlier so I thought I'd try again :) My groomer is trying to show a doxie that is fearful of the judges. She tends to shrink away or sink down. They have been trying desensitization. She tried her on Elavil 10 mg.-didn't help. Any ideas? Thanks ================== Subj: injection phobia Date: 96-11-05 08:57:10 EST From: CDBVCA Help! "Fica" is a diabetic cat that I diagnosed over a year ago. After hundreds of glucose curves and thousands of dollars, I finally got him regulated a couple months ago and physically he isdoing great--weight is up, no pu/pd... Unfortunately, now he is not letting owner give insulin injections--he tries to bite her and runs and hides. She usually gives the injection in the shoulder area while he eats. I recommended she use treats, catnip as distraction, vary the injection site. Any suggestions? I'd hate to lose this cat after all this. Thanks, Cindy DiBuono ================== Subj: TO DRFASTTALK pup training Date: 96-11-05 14:15:57 EST From: Jeff M VMD Thanks for your information. I have been using all positive methods for "Heel" since I started. I train by "targeting" which I learned from Leslie Nielson. She has two training facilities in Connecticut, one of which is "Tails U Win". I learned about her targeting methods while at a Camp Gone To The Dogs in Vermont. I beleive she will be having some workshops in the near future. If you are intersted, I can give you the information. So far the targeting has worked for my puppies and is amazing at keeping their attention focused on you during a "heel". Amy ================== Subj: Canine intermale aggression Date: 96-11-05 19:19:48 EST From: KattDancer I have a client who has a 3 year old Welsh Corgi and a 1 year old Doberman, both neutered males, both obedience trained. The Doberman has begun to challenge the Corgi, who won't bakc down from the threat. So far, the owners have been supporting the Corgi in matters of dominance, since he is the oldest. The Doberman is displaying escalating male-male dominance aggression that is barely controllable. The owner's fear that he will soon injure the Corgi. Supporting the Doberman's dominance will most likely result in serious damage to the Corgi. The Doberman was introduced into the household as a puppy, and until recently has yeilded to the Corgi. Any suggestions on how to resolve this matter, if it can be resolved? ================== Subj: Re:Fearful doxie Date: 96-11-06 21:46:52 EST From: IlanaR Marti Thank you for reposting! You asked about.... <<<My groomer is trying to show a doxie that is fearful of the judges. She tends to shrink away or sink down. They have been trying desensitization. She tried her on Elavil 10 mg.-didn't help.>>> With the caveat that drug therapy in the ring might be a question of ethics (?) (ie a good question for discussion might be whether dogs in the ring should have their temperaments artificially "altered" - since they're being judged against both a physical and behavioral standard for breeding...? Any thoughts?) using an anti-anxiety drug can certainly help. What you can suggest is that it be used during the treatment phase and weaned off when the dog is officially being shown (that's what I usually suggest). The drug should be used along with desensitization, not alone. If Elavil isn't doing the trick, try buspirone (approx. 5 mg TID for a dachshund) - it may require a couple of weeks to effect - the pharmacological effect should be visible, ie this dog should be cowing less. But then the work of desens. begins - have they tried distracting with a strong reinforcer like liver? Best bet would be a combination of buspirone and systematic work with someone willing to pose as a judge, so that the training is intenstive for a while, in the *same* setting as a regular show. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:anti litter box Date: 96-11-06 21:53:37 EST From: IlanaR Jimbob - The inappropriate elimination you describe might be due to the cat's learned preference for outdoor sites/substrates (soil, flowerbeds, leaves) - and although he goes outside again, he has now learned to elim. in indoor areas other than the boxes. This is just a guess - but it's pretty likely. The other possibilities would be pathology or marking (unlikely, but not impossible, since both urination and defecation are involved). I hate to toss a question back to you but what have they actually done? What's in your handout? That's where I would concentrate treatment - owners often call me and claim they've done a lot (which they have) but a good consult session helps with teasing out doing things better - for example they may say they've tried adding boxes, but how many, and where? If you can find out, please post :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Biting Jack Russell Date: 96-11-06 21:59:48 EST From: IlanaR Paula - Where are you located (couldn't find a member profile :))? I would be very hesitant to rely on drugs with a dog like this - it would be a doomed case, I think, and possibly worse because of risk of ongoing bites (by the way, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV, but release forms don't release you from liability if you imply any treatment may help). Would these people be interested in referral? If you let me know where you are I can suggest someone close by. Unfortunately, aggressive dogs do best only with considerable commitment by owners (in my experience). If these owners aren't willing to see a behaviorist, a successful outcome is pretty unlikely. I hope they consider it Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Teeth Extraction Date: 96-11-06 22:05:28 EST From: IlanaR Dennis - I second the caution with which these poor owners have to approach keeping their dog and keeping their house insured - it's bad news. Hopefully they can keep shopping around. You asked <<The owner wanted to know about the feasibility of extracting the four canine teeth to prevent the further rare chance of a repeat occurrance even this will not safisfy the insurance company.>> Tooth extraction is done at times for aggression but you'd really have to remove (or flatten/root canal) more than canines for safety reasons - ie incisors and premolars too. Dogs do damage with their gums (there's considerable pressure applied, and bone beneath the gingival layer) and I know of one case in which molars did serious damage. So - it's do-able, and I have suggested it to people here and there. Unfortunately I don't have any first hand information about insurance company reactions (thanks, Andoc, for your input). Ilana ================== Subj: Tail mutilation Date: 96-11-06 23:27:53 EST From: VETSCALPEL I am looking for comments regarding a 7 year old spayed female Lab that 3 years ago broke away from her owner and ran at a truck about 150 feet away that was coming down the road. The dog literally ran into the truck, and somehow only fractured its tail in 2 places. The fractures were allowed to heal without intervention. The dog was fine until last June when she started "knibbling" on the end of her tail for a very short period of time. In July, she began to mutilate the middle of her tail, chewing at it constantly. Owner initially treated it as a hot spot until she realized it was more serious. Veterinarian thought there was pain sensation and recommended amputation, which was performed in August, leaving about 3" of tail. Dog supposedly "rubbed out" the sutures the first night (I suspect maybe chewed out as the dog did on the second night when the tail was resutured.) The third night the dog chewed out the skin staples the veterinarian tried. E collar put on and has basically been left on 24 hrs/day since then. If the collar is taken off, the dog will "quickly" go after the end of the tail and start chewing on it. The owner describes it as a spontaneous reaction, much like someone a person reacts to a mosquito bite. She thinks the dog is reacting to some kind of sensation that is intermittent rather than constant. The dog is generally healthy, albeit a bit excited in the exam room. I took the collar off and interestingly, over the 45 minutes of the visit the dog did not go after its tail. The owner thinks it was because the dog was excited. Once I did notice it quickly turn its head quickly back towards its tail as if something bit her there. The end of the tail is not painful as I could not get her to react in any manner by pinching the end of the tail. A scab was present on the end of the tail that easily came off exposing a small open lesion. It does not appear infected. The owner suspected phantom pain and was referred to be for further amputation of the tail. I don't buy it - the problem started before the tail was amputated and has continued after the tail was amputated. I am not yet convinced the lesion on the end of the tail is the problem, again for the same reason. Exploring the end of the tail for a potential reason (skin inverted when sutured, hair ingrowing and causing irritation) has been discussed. I am leaning toward a behavioral problem although the owner could not identify anything that has changed in the dog's life or environment that might account for the problem. A apologize for the lengthy nature of this post but this lady is at wits end and is getting desperate. I am not sure this is a "chance to cut, chance to cure" situation and would appreciate others input. Thanks. Paul Howard ================== Subj: Re:Teeth Extraction Date: 96-11-06 23:39:54 EST From: VETSCALPEL This is not a folder I usually read but posted a question and noticed this posting. As a referral surgeon who does a lot of oral surgery, I am frequently called by veterinarians and pet owners to extract teeth in biting dogs, and occasionally other species such as monkeys. I uniformly refuse to perform the surgery. As was pointed out in a previous posting, the canine teeth are not the only teeth that can inflict great damage. The other reason is that by extracting the teeth you are giving the owners a false sense of security. If the dog, or monkey, subsequently bites someone after you have rendered it safe (as perceived by the owners) you could potentially be considered liable for injuries caused to someone else. I suspect that lawyer would have had the veterinarian's name pretty fast had the dog's teeth been removed before it bit her. It is simply not worth the risk. I tell the pet owner that a biting dog is not acceptable, extracting teeth will not solve the problem, and to give serious consideration to removing the dog from the environment. Paul Howard ================== Subj: Re:showing fearful doxie Date: 96-11-07 01:32:38 EST From: SAHDVM Ilana-Thanks for the help! My groomer has an appointment with Pat Melese for additional counseling. Yes, I had a long talk about trying to *chemically* alter the behavior of a show dog, I told them I was concerned about this trait being passed on to her pups. It will be interesting to see-this dog's brother, sister and parents are all fine in the show ring. Just as an additional thought to your question about artificially altering the behavior of show dogs-isn't any behavioral therapy like desensitization also artificially (although not chemically) *altering* the show dog? Certainly the fact that behavior modification alone did not work and that drugs were considered and used makes this dog a less than desirable breeding dog. It seems to me that ideally you would only want dogs needed NO extraordinary behavior training. :) Marti ================== Subj: Re:pancreatitis/pica in cat Date: 96-11-07 02:09:34 EST From: Vmjvca Thank you - Ilana- for your comments on the cat with aberrant and bizarre appetites and behavior. To follow up, after a trial of Buspar that did not seem to change anything, I put "Sam" on Prozac. That has made a huge difference. The cat can be at home with the owners and the other cats. He eats normally and does not exhibit the bizarre and anxious behavior that he had prior exhibited. He is content and happy and so are the owners. I and they know that this may be only borrowing time and that a specific diagnosis has not been found. I have to think that there is some organic brain problem that will get worse with time, but for now they and their cat are happy. The dose of Prozac I am using is 1/8th of a 20 mg capsule orally mixed with food BID. I would appreciate any other information you may come up with. Thank you. Ginny (vmjvca) ================== Subj: Urine marking ragdolls Date: 96-11-07 12:20:14 EST From: Jornadadoc I need help with an aggression problem between two ragdoll cats. Lucy is a 2 1/2 year old spayed female who used to be the owners one and only pride and joy for the first year of her life. She went to work with the owner every day and laid on his desk while he worked. Then the owners job situation changed such that he started doing a lot of traveling. He was leaving Lucy home all the time and she seemed depressed to him so his veterinarian, at that time, suggested a second cat. At first everything was great. They got a second female ragdoll and the two cats seems to hit it off very well together - no fighting. As the kitten started getting older, about 6 months, the two cats not only started fighting but they both started marking their territories with gusto. The owners have three litter boxes which they keep immaculate. They have tried separating the cats but then they both stop eating and get depressed until they are put back together. During the day they often curl up together and sleep but then for no apparent reason the owners will come home to find fur all over, the house smelling of urine and the cats donÆt want to be anywhere near each other. Within a day or so everything is back to normal. The owners are desperate! They are ready to try and medication/behavior modification that you may suggest. Help!!! Thanks Carol ================== Subj: Repost cats & electric cords Date: 96-11-07 12:31:47 EST From: Doctor 738 Repost: I have a 1yr 4month old female feline patient who is chewing electric cords, the owner's briefcase, and rattan furniture. We boarded Indy 1 month ago and she chewed her bowls and kitty litter pan. We never saw her do it. The owner does see her do it. I started Indy on valium 3/96, the owner thinks the cat is chewing less. The owner has tried a spray bottle and claims that Indy is very persistant. Should we try another antianxiety drug or more behavior modification. thanks in advance diana ================== Subj: Fearfull/Anious Dog Date: 96-11-07 17:56:35 EST From: MLPVETDIVE I have been seeing a 3 yr old male bearded Collie. The owners have only had him for 8 months. Previously he was owned by a "trainer" for what that's worth. He is frightened by everything: airplanes passing by, vacuum cleaner, dishwasher(the latter 2 he desparately wants outside & it is hard to get him to come back in). Any new situation or new person she runs from. She is always nervous and acts anxious. Owner says she acts like she is "sad" all the time. I am suspicous that the original owner was abusive. The current owner is very patient with this dog but is worried and wants to know what else to do. Any suggestions? I was wondering if a drug like Elavil or other drug might help to calm the dog down and not be so reactive to the environment. Mark ================== Subj: Pica in cat Date: 96-11-07 17:59:26 EST From: KayteeS I have a distressed client with a 1 year old neutered male cat who they obtained from a shelter as a kitten. He is an indoor cat and eats Science Diet Light dry food. Their concern is that the cat eats sweaters, polarfleece, blankets, upholstery, and rugs. He has miraculously never had an obstruction or even vomiting (his stool is often full of fabric), but the owner is very distressed about the cost of replacing all the things that he eats. Any suggestions? ================== Subj: Territorial Aggression Date: 96-11-07 19:18:10 EST From: JHughesDVM A 4 year old neutered male lab-chow mix has become very aggressive in the house over the last 4 months. The household includes 2 adults ( 40something) a male 6 yr old neutered male shepard-lab mix, and an 11 yr old female dachsund. The dachsund has been there for 11 years, the older male for 5 years, and the young male for 4 years. The younger male dog has always been slightly territorial around the food dish, but recently the dog lunges at the older dog when it comes into the kitchen. Outside, the older dog will dominate the younger, but inside the older dog will actually avoid the younger dog. When it comes to attention, the older dog will push the younger aside. There was some question as to if there was a dominance shift at home, but after observing the two dogs together, it is obvious that the older dog is still dominant. The younger dog is not aggressive when challenged by strangers, and does not show any immediate aggression when approached by another male dog, even when challenged. The owner is concerned because the attacks have become progressively more violent, and the younger dog is now attacking the dachsund, who at this point has not been involved, and who does has spinal problems. SMA/CBC were normal on the younger dog. An initial course of progesterone in oil ( 50mg IM ), followed by megesterol acetate ( 20mg q5days ), showed some initial benefits in reducing the actual attacks, although the younger dog still growled at the older dog, particularly in the kitchen. Amitryptilin ( 50mg PO BID ) had no effects, when used. Buspar ( 5mg PO BID ) initially made the aggression worse ( first 3 days ), but then seem to reduce the aggressive outbursts for a week or so. However, the owner describes the dog as having "mood" swings and is not sure that Buspar is helping. I am contemplating repeating the progesterone injection, coupled with the Buspar, but I am quickly getting the feeling that I'm reaching. Behavioral modification has been implemented with some regularity, particularly removing the food dish from the kitchen, reducing aggressive play behavior with the husband in the evenings, dominance reinforcement by giving the older dog preferential treatment....etc. Help. Euthansia is coming up more frequently in the client consultation. Jim Hughes ================== Subj: re:fly snapping Date: 96-11-07 22:18:12 EST From: EliseDoc Dear Llana, Thank you for your information, very helpful, Elise Seattle ================== Subj: Canine Tail Licking Date: 96-11-08 10:52:20 EST From: PaulRowan recently saw a 5 yr. Neutered male Dalmation presented with a hx. of chronic tail licking. On this presentation, he had porphyrin staining of the distal 8 inches of the tail. The underlying skin is mildly erythematous. I started him on symptomatic tx. for the skin. However, the owner would like to know if their is any type of medication that would relieve his anxiety. Apparently, he chews (or licks) the tail when the phone or doorbell rings or any time he is left alone for an extended period. Any suggestions? ================== Subj: Re:Finding the culprit Date: 96-11-08 12:12:15 EST From: IlanaR KetchumDoc - That is a bit of a dilemma. The urination is sporadic (Q 4-6 weeks) and there are 6 cats in the home.....since you found crystalluria in two (is that right?) you said the problem (the crystalluria?) is approx. 80% resolved. I might concentrate on resolving this completely - perhaps with radiographic studies to rule out stones, or more vigorous dietary adjustments. Otherwise (and if this doesn't control the urination) there really isn't a practical way to determine which cat(s) is/are the culprits. The fluorescein as originally described by Dr. Ben Hart is rolling up 4-6 strips into a gel cap and administering orally - this would have to be given every 48-72 hours or so, so in theory you should be able to administer it to a single cat for 1-1.5 months - but that doesn't make much sense because if you happen to select the wrong cat you could be administering fluorescein every 2 days for 6-9 months! Unfortunately, separating the cats doesn't work well because, in the absence of one or more cats, others won't necessarily spray or mark. By the way, is this cat spraying or urinating on a horizontal part of the furniture? About the only suggestion I have other than resolving the urinary tract dz and perhaps trying systematic, long term separations would be to use a full history to make an educated guess about who the culprit or culprits might be. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive Feline Date: 96-11-08 12:14:04 EST From: IlanaR MTGOAT - Could you give us any more details about when/how/to what degree this cat acts aggressive? A behavioral diagnosis would be important here. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Cats and Electric Cords Date: 96-11-08 12:15:12 EST From: IlanaR Diana - Is this cat ingesting? The problem would be addressed differently if chewing (only) or if ingesting (latter would be a pica). This is one of those behavior problems that no one understands well - there is speculation that it could be anything from a pleasurable (learned) behavior to a compulsive disorder to an oropharyngeal/gastrointestinal pathological disorder or all of the above. Treatment is as varied as the differential diagnosis. If the cat is focusing on specific objects, the owner could start with just making them less pleasurable to chew - hence the usefulness of aversive tastes and textures (try duct tape) - the cat would either stop chewing, or she would redirect her chewing to more available objects. If it's the latter, I'd look at the "whole cat" - and try to approach it through environmental manipulation or behavior modification - this would require diary keeping. For example, is chewing associated with social isolation, with stress, or .... etc. If that doesn't help I'd try diet changes - perhaps to increase fiber, or also consider a hypoallergenic trial diet. If that doesn't work, I'd try drug therapy. Which drug? Probably an anti-obsessional eg SSRI or clomipramine - but there really isn't a specific indication. Compulsive chewing would be a diagnosis based on exclusion. Hope that's helpful. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Drooling dog Date: 96-11-08 12:16:05 EST From: IlanaR Earmie - It wasn't very clear in your post whether this Sheltie is just carsick/nauseous or also fearful. If he's fearful/anxious, consider a TCA - amitriptyline or imipramine act as anxiolytics and also anticholinergics. As far as behavior modification - if the problem is car rides specifically, desensitization is pretty straightforward - first to the parked car, then an idling motor, then short rides, and so on - also try making the destination wonderful, like going to the park. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Pica in cat Date: 96-11-08 18:03:19 EST From: IlanaR Kaytee - Do you have access to the VIN database? There's a good stockpile - at least I think it's good! - of information there if you use search words "fabric eating and cat" or "fabric and cat" or "wool and cat" - that should bring up many posts about this problem. If you don't have access, please just say so and Gary or I will respond to your post- thanks :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Drooling dog Date: 96-11-08 20:23:55 EST From: Eledvm Hi Ilana, Thanks for trying to help. Dog is focused on mom in exam room, paws are very wet. Was drooling only during car rides but recently began drooling while visiting another home (where he was originally born). Will try desensitization, appreciate the advice. Earmie ================== Subj: Re:Tail mutilation Date: 96-11-09 00:19:09 EST From: BGNQVH Could this dog be simply chewing its tail since she cannot feel it? I've had dogs chew off part of a limb that was injured and the limb (leg or tail) lacked sensation. In fact, just had a shepherd mix do a self amputation overnight as we were waiting to make a decision on surgery. I had another case of a dog self-mutilating her tail. Chewed the hell out of it. We amputated part, but she kept chewing. Referred to Auburn, where they finally diagnosed seizures, put the dog on phenobarb and she did fine from then on. Good luck. Barry Nicholls ================== Subj: Repost:Sep. anxiety(dog) Date: 96-11-09 14:23:25 EST From: POVARAH This is part of a history of a Female (Spayed) Five years, ten months old Labrador x Greyhound Weight: 70 lbs. This behavior has tried being curbed by adding other pets to the house, exercise, desensitizing, valium, elavil and behavior consults. Behavior was exacerbated by the recent death of my clients husband. Jesse's destructive behavior seems to be concentrated on the kitchen. She opens cabinet doors, gets to garbage, pulls out everything in the cabinets and eats and tears up anything she can get her paws on. I've tried putting child proof latches on the doors, she breaks them. I next tried tieing the cabinet doors together and she pulled the door hinges out of the wood. She is getting a mile a day walk, play sessions and I am giving her individual time. She has lots of chew toys, which I rotate so she will not become bored with them. I stuff kongs and hollow bones with cheese and dog bisquits and peanut butter to try to amuse her. In addition she has begun to exhibit aggression and redirected agression towards the other animals in the house. She has started to chase the cats (though she does not hurt them when she catches them). She growls and snaps at the other dogs when they are excited. She growls when she is laying down and another animal walks by. There have been three fights between Jesse and Caitlin(another dog)- I have managed to break up these fights with little damage (blood was drawn from one fight). I've thought about seperating jesse from the other dogs when I am gone but her anxiety seems to increase if she is locked away from the others. I am considering placing a basket muzzle on Jesse to cut down on her acts of destruction and prevent injury to the other animals. However I have read that it is not a good idea to muzzle only one dog in a multidog household and I hate to have to muzzle all of the dogs. If we leave Jesse in our fenced yard she digs under the fence and tries to follow us. If she is tied out she barks continuously. In addition dog theft is a problem and I dare not risk this option. When I am home Jesse is very fixated on me. (This has always been the case) She follows me were ever I go and is usually in physical contact with me. This leaning, and laying on behavior had improved but has worsened once again. My client is open to any suggestions as to treatment for this dog. She does not want to and will not consider euthanization. Behavioral therapy has started once again but is unable to take two weeks, never leaving her alone in the house. She has to go to work and earn the kibble. Jesse cannot accompany her since she grows very excited and anxious in public areas (despite intensive socialization as a puppy). Friends have suggested to her Bach Floral Remedies (A homeopathic floral extract-but I do not know much about these-I am obtaining information about them). Other suggestions have been to change her diet to one which does not contain preservatives and byproducts. She is currently eating a high quality diet of Nutro MAX Lamb and Rice, preserved with Vitamin C. Thank you for reading this long case history and considering our problem. I will appreciate and consider with any suggestions offered. Thanks, Mark ================== Subj: Possible dominance? Date: 96-11-10 13:03:48 EST From: RonK23 I posted a message a few weeks ago and never got a response so I will try again. I took a 5 month old abandoned mixed breed puppy home to try him out but have doubts about his character after a few altercations and now am trying to find him a home. He was brought in with a necrotic tail secondary to rubberbands, and I amputated it but I think he still may have some pain around his back end. He is now 6 months old and 23 lbs and I neutered him and removed his dewclaws last week. What makes me wonder about him is that on a few occasions he did show aggression. These included when the dog trainer came to evaluate him and corrected him, when I tried to take away his rawhide bone, when my husband forcefully made him sit by pushing his rear end down, and when I gave hime a bath and ran the water over him which he detested. Could these things be explained by pain with the exception of the rawhide, and was I misinterpreting the rawhide incident where he may have simply been playing with me? Or, was he actually being aggressive and if so this would not be a good dog with my 3 year old daughter. It is breaking my heart as he is a wonderful cute little dog and plays and licks and is great with other dogs and quite obedient though still a stubborn puppy. He is "settled" according to the trainer which means he may be dominant (?), and I spoke to a behaviorist/trainer (Nancy Williams) who said that he sounds like a dog I should get rid of. But she did not see the dog so how could she be sure? She said if there was any doubt then why take a chance? I wonder if good training could help. Also she did not recommend certain dog trainers as they jerk and pull and that can increase aggression. She recommended behaviorists. I do not know of any in NJ and will try to find where Peter Borshelt is these days. If anyone can help please write and let me know what you think. I appreciate it. In the meantime he is here right now asleep at my feet. We went to a doggie play date and running this AM and he is all tired out. Faith :( ================== Subj: Biting dog- Repost Date: 96-11-10 13:59:40 EST From: Adrenal ================== Subj: growling bitch Date: 96-11-07 13:31:42 EST From: LSidney Posted on: America Online I am wondering whether you have any advice re a Labrador bitch who is unpredictably growling and occas. snapping at her one week old pups. This is her first litter, medically she checks out ok on a basic physical. Only bldwk done was a Ca level which was fine. Much of the time she's ok, but she does have these unpredictable periods. She's also panting quite a bit - though I would too with 10 pups. I told the owner to fuss over her and take her away from pups at times so she has a break, but it is not helping and the owner is worried that she'll hurt the pups. Any suggestions? Thanks. ================== Subj: Re:Biting dog- Repost Date: 96-11-10 16:32:11 EST From: IlanaR Aggression directed to puppies is most likely to happen in primiparous (first-time) mothers. Her milk and mammary glands should be checked for signs of mastitis or other inflammation - assuming that's been ruled out, the puppies should be watched closely because dams do kill puppies at times, and sometimes are particularly aggressive to indiv. puppies but not to others. The aggression may be a sign of inexperience or simply a sign of poor mothering skills (guess you could call this "natural selection in action") -- if the aggression persists, esp. if there is evidence of attempts to bite, I'd consider removing them and bottle-feeding if possible (and this dog probably shouldn't be bred). Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Possible dominance? Date: 96-11-10 16:45:27 EST From: IlanaR Faith - In my inimitable way, I did answer your post a week or so ago, but cut-pasted another message into it by mistake. Here's what I said then -- Faith - It's too hard to really evaluate this puppy without seeing him. All the behaviors you describe sound like normal puppy stuff - but puppies vary a lot in personality and "sassiness" and tendency to mouth, etc. A good trainer should get you on the right track with control issues - I'd definitely suggest a head collar (ie Gentle Leader/Promise) for walks, if he's starting to show wariness of strangers. Use Dr. Wayne Hunthausen's idea of carrying a bag of treats that only strangers can offer the puppy, and then have them give him a cookie for sitting. Train him to respond to voice and never let him mouth you. Unfortunately, it is just not possible to predict aggression. Many dogs showing dominance aggression as adults start off food-aggressive as puppies, so at least he's not doing that now (do test him (but be safe) with taking away the rawhide - reward him by returning it, or offer to trade for a biscuit, etc.). But many other dogs become aggressive as adults and were cupcakes as pups. So far he sounds like a regular old puppy to me. You might want to buy/find the book "Readings in Companion Animal Behavior" by Voith and Borchelt (eds), a recent softcover with good general info on dog aggression, so you can know what to watch for. But in general you need to have a canine saint (I have one - his aggression threshold isn't even within view) to live safely with a 3 year old. My two cents :). Ilana PS - It's close to impossible to evaluate a dog over the computer - if you can get Peter Borchelt to look at him that would be good (please email if you'd like his phone # - he is still based in Brooklyn, I believe). Even an evaluation by a behaviorist now might not predict future aggression, though - sometimes you just have to go with your instinct and play the odds (and know what to watch for). Hope this has helped - good luck Ilana ================== Subj: re:Behavior Beginner Date: 96-11-11 00:46:52 EST From: Atallicat I have spent a lot of time researching the archives and still needed some help with this one. You may feel He needs referral.( I live in Tallahassee, Fl. in case you do) This is regarding an 11 month old lab mix who is unexpectedly aggressive, unprovoked, and bites the owner and 12 year old daughter. The couple who brought him in were very interesting. The mom is alpha. The father is very submissive and I imagine the daughter to be submissive to. The puppy is full of energy, jumped on me and wanted to be petted. They constantly made him down stay with very little breaks. ( 30 mins to listen to people chat would be along time for me. I prefer my patients to relax and walk around...) It seems as if the move three weeks ago from N.C. exacerbated the agression. They can be sitting watching TV or reading and the dog will hear a noise, go through the living area to see what it's about, get distracted in some way by the humans, turn, flatten ears, growl, show teeth and BITE. The mother is always the one to intervene with a sit or down to distract him. The father or daughter can be petting him and he'll turn and bite. They apparantly have been reading things because they decided his behavior would be better about food if they left it down all the time. He is protective about his food and doesn't want it taken away so they let him nibble. The behavior problems started when he was younger with the food guarding. The dog seems friendly (almost too friendly) outgoing, was submissive for exam. P/E was very normal. No clinical signs of disease. Was neutered at four months. They are a sedentary family and I asked about his excercise and they play stick in the house. He has been through 2 obedience classes and wears a pinch collar while on lead. They feel his attacks are unprovoked. I made several suggestions till I could hear from you. Feed him bid in crate. Remove his food after and hour or so and let him out. Have him crated when friends children are over. Don't isolate him when crated, maybe in family room so he doesn't feel left out. Start an excercise program to relieve some of that energy! Play stick in the back yard morning and evening or go on brisk walks twice daily. Start gradually. I also Talked about the promise halter and leaving that on him with a leash when he was loose in the house but I don't really know much about how to use it. I saw reference to it when I was doing research but need more info. I hate to resort to drugs at this point. I would appreciated suggestions on promise halter, training techniques. One thing I did notice about this dog is that he did not mind holding your eye contact. He locked eyes with me and I was worried about staring him down. I won and he went happily about his business but I don't get that eye stuff with all my patients. I think that is all I can tell you since I haven't taken too many of these histories and am just learning this. Thank you in advance. Melanie ================== Subj: Jake's upset Date: 96-11-11 13:44:08 EST From: SAB SINGER This is a 10yr.old, m(n), Maine Coon cat. He has a history of placing stools on the owner's beds when their are changes in the household, I.e. the daughter goes back to college, they have overnight guests, and when the main part of the family goes on vacation. The problem has historically been transient and because the owner could easily clean up the stools, not a major concern. Recently, the owner was out-of-town 2 weeks and the cat was home with a grown child.Jake (the cat) defecated and urinated on the owner's bed while they were gone. When they returned the owner shut the cat out of bedrooms and he defecated and urinated on the carpeted floor outside the bedrooms. The bedrooms are on the 2nd floor and the litter box is in the basement, he still uses the box primarily. Placing a second box on the 2nd floor has not helped in the past. The problem is more of a concern to the owner because of the added difficulty with urination and cleaning the beds. The cat is in generally good health. He has a palpable thyroid nodule but a normal T4 level that we are checking for the 2nd time today. I also have a UA pending but my guess is it is normal. Because he has an established hx of this behavior I am disinclined to think that a recent change in his physical status is playing a large role in the problem. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Steve. ================== Subj: Re:Ativan Date: 96-11-11 15:36:41 EST From: DVMSAS Gary-- Thanks for the info you posted -- just knowing that lorazepam is short-acting gives me the answer I needed. If I run across any dosage info, I'll be sure to let you know. Anne ================== Subj: re:Biting Jack Russell` Date: 96-11-11 15:57:27 EST From: ANIMALDOC1 We are located in South Florida - about 20 miles NW of Ft. Lauderdale. Thanks for the suggestions and input -- much appreciated. I agree entirely that this will take much commitment from the owners. I had a chance to speak to the trainer who worked with them. He thinks we may have trouble with all members of the family complying with the suggestions, yet feels the dog can be trained. -- Paula ================== Subj: Repost:Fearfull/Anious Dog Date: 96-11-11 16:00:59 EST From: MLPVETDIVE ================== Subj: Fearfull/Anious Dog Date: 96-11-07 17:56:35 EST From: MLPVETDIVE I have been seeing a 3 yr old male bearded Collie. The owners have only had him for 8 months. Previously he was owned by a "trainer" for what that's worth. He is frightened by everything: airplanes passing by, vacuum cleaner, dishwasher(the latter 2 he desparately wants outside & it is hard to get him to come back in). Any new situation or new person she runs from. She is always nervous and acts anxious. Owner says she acts like she is "sad" all the time. I am suspicous that the original owner was abusive. The current owner is very patient with this dog but is worried and wants to know what else to do. Any suggestions? I was wondering if a drug like Elavil or other drug might help to calm the dog down and not be so reactive to the environment. Mark ================== Subj: Re:Repost:Fearfull/Anious Do Date: 96-11-11 19:31:35 EST From: Gmlandvm Although the word "abuse" always comes up in fear cases, many of the fears that we see are a result of inadequate socialization, insufficient exposure to stimuli during development, genetic components, and "inappropriate training" - The way to prevent and overcome emerging fears is through gradual exposure to stimuli and positive associations - unfortunately many owners/trainers try to improve the situation by punishment or discipline which, OF COURSE, aggravates the fear (the mildly fearful stimulus becomes predictive for an even more unpleasant consequence). On the other hand, some owners/trainers attempt to calm or reward the fearful so that the pet learns to associate rewards with fearful behavior. Generally to overcome or prevent these fears it is necessary to expose the pet to low level stimuli until it habituates (if the pet retreats or the stimulus is withdrawn too soon), improvement does not occur. Counterconditioning/countercommanding (training the pet to perform a learned task such as it-stay for extremely pleasurable rewards) combined with desensitization (exposure to minmal levels of the stimulus) works really well for a few identifiable stimuli but for more exagerrated and intense fears to multiple stimuli, a combined approach of drug therapy, exposure to mild stimuli (often with a head halter so that the dog can be calmed and cannot escape), and utilizing favored rewards for training sessions are usually necessary. If the amitriptyline alone does not work, you might try clomipramine or fluoxetine as "antipanic" type medications but give each drug a few weeks to determine full effect. Propanolol, buspirone and benzodiazepines (which could inhibit learning) might be added to the therapy if the antidepressants and training don't do the job. Gary ================== Subj: Re: Behavior Beginner Date: 96-11-12 09:19:36 EST From: IlanaR Melanie- I agree this case should be referred. A word about referrals and why I mention them so much - behavior problems (like any clinical problems) can be complex and usually are complex enough that a question-answer forum doesn't do them justice at all - veterinary medical training (as opposed to psychotherapy training eg) is much more linear and accomodates a treat-resolve approach (except maybe convoluted medicine cases) but behavior problems meander through a multiple-level diagnosis (history taking takes me at least an hour), then a long discussion of the diagnosis with clients so that they're ready for the next step, a long discussion of treatment plan and its rationale. When it comes to aggression, especially, quick solutions (by quick I mean typed into a paragraph) can be not only futile but dangerous. Referrals are a good idea not because of some obscure expertise - after all, information on clinical behavior medicine is available in the literature, on line, etc. - but because of the time allotted to the case. I speak to so many clients that have "tried everything" - that doesn't mean their animals won't respond to treatment, but just that we need to troubleshoot systematically and follow up a lot so that this particular animal's problem can be solved/improved. Anyway, with this dog the owners need a consultation, IMHO, so that all steps can be rationalized - head collar, constant behavioral control, "nothing in life is free", obedience training to food, prevention of aggression/biting, muzzle stuff, rearranging family relationships, etc. and to know when/where/how bites might be elicited. The liability potential if treatment backfires is huge. Tallahasee - is that within driving distance of Athens, GA? If not, maybe a vet-to-vet consultation by phone would work with you doing the vet-client consult? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Jake's upset Date: 96-11-12 09:26:39 EST From: IlanaR Steve- About Jake you said <<He has a history of placing stools on the owner's beds when there are changes in the household, i.e. the daughter goes back to college, they have overnight guests, and when the main part of the family goes on vacation. The problem has historically been transient>>. Is the current problem lingering, then? This sounds like anxiety-related elimination. If that's the case, treatment would center on reducing anxiety either environmentally or pharmacologically or both. I'd try the former first - to reduce anxiety they might anticipate visitors by restricting him to a comfortable room (eg a bedroom he likes) with a gate (or two, one on top of the other) not a shut door - this room should be used at other times as well, not just when guests are there. It could be used whenever the household is disrupted, and then the cat supervised when released, and anxiety counterconditioned with good food treats (baby food, yogurt, etc.) and attention. If the owners go away they should leave noise and lights on, play down arrivals and departures, just as they would with a dog with separation anxiety. If necessary *some* situations could be avoided by putting him on a temporary anxiolytic, eg diazepam (with all necessary caveats and cautions) or amitriptyline (ditto) - that would be ideal for long absences like a vacation. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Ativan Date: 96-11-12 09:38:50 EST From: IlanaR Anne, Gary - For what it's worth, I have not used lorazepam either, and don't know what dose would be appropriate - don't have it my files. If anyone out there has any information, please let us know :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Jake's upset Date: 96-11-12 10:31:14 EST From: SAB SINGER Thanks for your advice. The main reason the owners were more concerned with this episode centers on the fact that Jake is urinating as well as defecating out of the box. His urine was normal. I will pass on your suggestions for their consideratioin and maybe they can avoid future problems. Steve. ================== Subj: mating behavior/male cat Date: 96-11-12 17:46:18 EST From: M G8S I have a client with a 6-yr old DSH cat that has begun "mating"with his arm over the past month. The cat has been neutered since kittenhood, and is not currently on any medication, although he has been treated extensively for lymphocytic-plasmacytic stomatitis. The owner says that the cat will begin kneading his arm with his front paw, then begin rhythmically pushing with his back legs. The penis is extended, and a clear viscous fluid "glob" is produced. Any ideas why this would occur? Where is the fluid coming from--the owner says it is clear, with no odor. No other changes in the household reported. Thanks for any clues--Melissa ================== Subj: Re: Behavior Beginner Date: 96-11-12 18:31:19 EST From: Atallicat Llana: Yes Athens is about 5.5 hours from here. Who is there to refer to. ( I assume the U of G has someone?) I'll call the owners and ask if they will go, if not maybe we'll try the phone thing. Thanks. Melanie ================== Subj: Re: Behavior Beginner Date: 96-11-12 21:12:11 EST From: Gmlandvm Just browsing this evening and I saw your post - Dr. Sharon Crowell-Davis is the board certified behaviorist there. If you speak to her give our regards. Gary ================== Subj: copraphagia Date: 96-11-13 01:15:08 EST From: Wet Vet 41 Llana, got a 5 mo f black lab that is eating not only her own poop but other pets' feces in household (one cat, one dog) and even wildlife droppings such as deer etc. Tried Forbid in the diet for three days with no change. She is on good quality diet. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you Mark ================== Subj: Abherent feline urination Date: 96-11-13 01:23:06 EST From: SFSNEURO I was presented with a feline which has decided that the dining room rug is the place which she should urinate. The owners relate that the abherent urination began agout 8 months ago with the cat peeing in the sinks and when the owner placed an object in the sink it stopped and the cat then intermittently began urinating on the dining room carpet. The owner has made remarkable attempts to clean the area and even placed a cat box in the dining room. The cat would not use it but would pee beside it. If the cat is placed in her room she always uses the cat box. The owner has placed plastic over the carpet and the cat pees on the plastic. The owner relates that these episodes are somewhat intermitent, but the cat will eventually urinate on the rug. Any suggestions as to treatment in this case. If you need further info let me know. Urinanalysis and blood workups have been normal. Thanks. Steve ================== Subj: Self mutilation Date: 96-11-13 01:29:34 EST From: SFSNEURO A male two year old husky was presented to me for persistant vicious attacking of the rear limbs. And believe me this attack is extremely agressive sounding but only results in the penetrating of his own flesh occationally. The owners relate that the patient started this behavior as a yourg pup but the episodes only occured every month or two. As the patient matured the episodes have increased in frequency until now they are occuring every few minutes. the patient never is agressive towards people and is really a loving dog. But when he is stimulated, food or attention he looks at his rear limb left or right and then attacks it viciously. If you offer the patient food or distract him he will stop his attack and become attentive to you. I have never seen anything like this before and any help with treatment would be welcomed. Thanks Steve ================== Subj: Re:copraphagia Date: 96-11-13 10:23:29 EST From: Gmlandvm We see lots and lots of coprophagia cases - Fortunately with supervision and disuasion most puppies grow out of the problem. Although Forbid or proteolytic enzymes have worked occasionally for our patients, it does little unless the dog is only eating its own stool, since the forbid only changes the "taste" of the stool from the dog that ate it. There are numerous potential causes - puppy play behavior, a puppy with a voracious appetite, observational learning, or medical problems/undernutrition/overfeeding (which could lead to picas, an increased appetite or undigested food in the stool) - check for malabsorption, maldigestion, an unbalanced diet, underfeeding and parasites - It's not always necessary to do extensive testing unless the stools show a lot of undigested fat or fibre, is poorly formed or voluminous, or if the dog is underweight or has a ravenous appetite. Behavioral the answers are very simple - Supervise all walks and outings - until the dog responds to verbal commands, keep a long leash or line on the dog (preferably with a head halter) - As soon as the dog eliminates, call it over to sit and get a food reward - If the dog begins to investigate or mouth other stools give a verbal no and a pull on the head halter (punishment devices such as remote trainers, shake cans or alarms may be more effective but unecessary). On rare occasions, tkaing the dog aside, and lacing the stool with some anti chew product or mentholated compound, could stop the dog but a) dogs can usually detect the deterrent by smell and will just avoid the treated stools but not the untreated b) most ingestive behaviors can only be deterred by nauseants (can even be given shortly after the ingestion) and c) even with nauseants/emetics, the dog could generalize to all stools or pick up on a specific odour and only avoid those stools with that odor Gary ================== Subj: Re:Abherent feline urination Date: 96-11-13 10:34:25 EST From: Gmlandvm 1) repeat the urine a few times especially after a recent bout since some of the history could be considered with more frequent or uncomfortable urination 2) Obviously a location preference/habit has developed since regardless of the substrate the cat continues to return tot he spot (and will use the litter when confined) - In these cases odor elimination is critical (see chapter by Patrick Melese in Readings in Companion Animal Behaivor by VLS (Voith and Borchelt editors) but if there is any anxiety or marking component, odor elimination could be counterproductive because cats like to remark areas where the smell begins to dissipate 3) You might need to consider a behavior referral because it is critical that we determine potential causes, factors that maintain the behavior and develop a complete owner understanding of control and treatment However, you might consider as simple suggestions. The first attempt would be to keep the cat from the dining room or problem area with doors and barricades or some form of deterrent to keep the cat away from the favoured spots (motion detectors, Scat Mats, unpleasant odors - e.g. deodorant soap or perfume on the location, or an unpleasant texture - e.g. 2 sided tape or an upside down carpet runner (nubs up)). If the cat cannot be kept away from the problem areas it may need to be confined for an extended period of time (several weeks) and only allowed out and near the problem areas when the owner is available to supervise (and remote punish with a horn or water rifle if elimination begins). If elimination in the dining room is prevented and access to the dining room is supervised for the next month or two the problem may subside - However if new elimination areas arise or the problem recurs, drug therapy (if an anxiety or marking component is suspected) or referral would be your best options ================== Subj: electronic pest deterents Date: 96-11-13 13:43:14 EST From: VETJR I didn't know where to post this one?Has anyone heard whether the electronic pest deterent devices which emit high frequency sound have any effect on household pets? The companies claim they do not, but I wonder if they affect rodents why not cats and dogs? Any imput appreciated! ================== Subj: Please Read. Date: 96-11-13 15:19:21 EST From: BoyDoctor Hi Everyone!! Another great year at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers' annual conference in Phoenix,AZ. We had so many wonderful lectures I am now completly brain dead from trying to absorb it all! I personally would like to thank all the veterinarians who participated not only in the lectures but the networking and sharing of training/behavior ideas. This year was an awesome experience! Dr. Wayne Hunthausen spoke this year on fear and phobias this year. Excellent presentation. Dr. Ian Dunbar opened and closed our conference, it's always great to hear from him! We had a very intriguing lecture on Proactive Aggression Management using Positive Reinforcement. Randy Lockwood PhD. spoke on the Use, Misuse, and Abuse of Wolf Behavior Concepts in Training. And of course Gary Wilkes on clicker training, Terry Ryan on Lateral Thinking, Dr. Roger Abrantes on Separation anxiety and lots more! The APDT has most lectures on video if anyone is interested. Or, I'd be happy to share mine. Ilana, I have seen several of your presentations at Friskies seminars and last year at Western States. You have alot to offer our group. Maybe you would consider speaking next year. If your interested please let me know. I'd be happy to share the info from the conference with anyone reading this just let me know. Also you can phone the APDT office and get a Directory, which lists APDT members in your area. The # is 1-800-PET-DOGS. Or you can reach me at 916-758-9284 or E-mail at K9manners@aol.com. Sincerely, Kris Kates President, APDT ================== Subj: Re:copraphagia Date: 96-11-13 16:58:29 EST From: Wet Vet 41 Gary, Thank you - I always learn so much from you guys in behavior (-: Mark ================== Subj: Re:electronic pest deterents Date: 96-11-13 20:48:39 EST From: IlanaR I don't know first hand, but would guess that the ultrasound (assuming that's what's emitted) would distract dogs and cats momentarily or until they habituate to it (get used to it). Another thought is that cats tend to be very sensitive to noise stimuli - so I suppose there's the potential that such a sound, at least initially, would upset a cat and (at worst) cause redirected fear aggression to the nearest victim - ie another cat, or an owner. But I tend to think in terms of worst case scenarios - it's genetic :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Please Read. Date: 96-11-13 20:50:38 EST From: IlanaR Thanks for the info, Kris :). Your group is a very good one, and I hope we hear more about it as time goes on - I, for one, hope it can begin to certify trainers. Any stirrings or discussion at the meeting about that? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Self mutilation Date: 96-11-13 21:02:14 EST From: IlanaR Steve- This behavior sounds like it's either a case of compulsive disorder or perhaps seizure related (partial/psychomotor). Diagnosis would be exclusionary - meaning you'd need to rule out other reasonable causes of localized irritation/pain, also the dog should have a complete neuro exam and lab profile performed. If otherwise he seems fine, you might want to treat with a combination of behavior modification and drug therapy for one or the other (anti-anxiety and/or antiobsessional for compulsive disorder; anticonvulsant for seizure disorder). I'd tend to assume the former because it's not *that* unusual a presentation. I would guess this behavior would intensify with stress or conflict, as if the dog is redirecting its frustration to itself (eg confinement, excitement, anticipation of walks or eating, etc.). Compulsive disorder appears to involve dopaminergic and serotonergic systems - drugs used successfully usu. increase serotonin or decrease dopamine function. You could try clomipramine (after a chem profile and EKG or cardiac ultrasound to assess cardiac function) - the drug of choice in human compulsive disorder - with a gradually increasing dose of 0.5-1 mg/kg BID up to 1.5-3 mg/kg BID - in human med. a total daily dose of 200 mg maximum shouldn't be exceeded, so that is probably true with dogs. SSRI's such as Prozac or Paxil 1mg/kg SID poss. with increasing dose to effect (I haven't done that but others have - I believe Steve Melman has posted about increased dose) may help. Simply providing an anxiolytic like buspirone may help - keep in mind that clomipramine and possibly SSRI's can lower seizure thresholds, so monitoring by the owner is important. Behavior mod. has an important place in treatment because owners need to anticipate stressors and get the dog to do something incompatible with self-attacking, such as lying down or fetching a ball. See other posts on compulsive disorder/CD in the database - they'd be helpful too. Good luck with this one - I'd love a copy of the videotape! Ilana (hint, hint) ================== Subj: Re:Tail mutilation Date: 96-11-13 21:07:20 EST From: IlanaR Paul- This sounds like yet another compulsive/self-mutilation disorder. The previous post on self-mutilation would probably apply here as well - at least it's worth a try. In general amputation does little or nothing to reduce the tendency to bite or spin (circle). It's an unusual eliciting stimulus, though - interesting that it started with trauma. My guess is that the dog's central wiring (brain) has responded this way because of an underlying abnormality to begin with, and now the behavior is neurochemically driven (so it appears), assuming you've ruled out localized pain, which apparently you have. If the previous post isn't helpful please repost - Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Abherent feline urination Date: 96-11-13 21:28:57 EST From: ROSchueler Steve I have also added additional litter pans, placed some with sand, dirt ect. Sounds silly but it occasionally works. ROSchueler ================== Subj: Re:Please Read. Date: 96-11-13 22:49:28 EST From: Gmlandvm Ditto from me - we need more and more and more educated and informed trainers and I know that Ian and your group of speakers this year were top notch. I'll be in touch by phone or E-Mail to find out more about some of the presentations. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Abherent feline urination Date: 96-11-13 22:57:21 EST From: Gmlandvm Because the cat was willing to use its litterbox when confined, the multiple litter box technique may not work, but as mentioned its worth a try. In addition to removing the appeal of the soiled area, this technique attempts to increase the appeal of the litter box and litter area. Therefore providing 2 or more litter boxes at least and then determining the litter and box preferences by giving a choice of materials and finding out what the cat prefers is a good suggestion. You can then repeat other choices (different litter, different box type) until you see the cat's real preferences can be really useful. Gary ================== Subj: the cat goes back Date: 96-11-14 08:10:04 EST From: MVYVET Maybe I didn't use the right terms but I can't find anything on search to help out with the problem of the cat who persists in leaving a new home to return to the old. Owner has a 6 year old M/N DSH who has returned to his old neighborhood 15 times in last 18 months. Owner tries keeping in and cat is affectionate and happy but as soon as he gets out, he splits. Outside food and dirty clothes do not induce him to stay around and making him strictly indoor is not an option. There are 3 other cats in the house , all F/S, all cats that were with the M at previous home, no other animals. The cat doesn't actually go to his old house but just to the general area. Owner is ready to get rid of cat. No one in old neighborhood will adopt. Owner wondered if Ovaban would help (I didn't think so.) Any suggestions? MGJ ================== Subj: Re:the cat goes back Date: 96-11-14 15:31:47 EST From: Gmlandvm We'll see if Ilana has any other comments, but I really don't see how drug therapy could possibly motivate the cat to stay in its present environment or not wish to return to its old environment. There's no anxiety, aggression, fear, etc. for the drug to work on. I really think that preventing return to the old environment by a) keeping the cat indoors b) building an outdoor confinement/cattery type area c) only allowing outdoors on leash and harness supervised or as a very last resort z) invisible fencing type units with the cat size receiver collars -I'm hearing the cat calls from the peanut gallery and although the devices don't always work on cats, and could cause other behavior problems (increased anxiety / redirected aggression) they are an option for some owners. Make food and play entirely contingent on returning indoors (and at no other times). Also have the owners return to the old neighborhood to determine what incentives their might be for the cat returning e.g are poeople feeding the cat there. Gary ================== Subj: Re:mating behavior/male cat Date: 96-11-14 17:25:09 EST From: Gmlandvm I don't profess to be a reproductive specialist but I believe that the fluid would be some small amount of seminal fluid, which may also be a component of sprayed urine or a little urine. Male behaviors are greatly reduced by castration but it is not unusual for a small percentage of adult cats to exhbit male behavior such as masturbation, mounting etc. Of course if the cat finds it pleasurable, it is further reinforced. Withdrawing attention or a short, swift, deterrent may do the job (I like cans of compressed air, a water rifle, or an alarm or ultrasonic device). What does seem unusual is the age of onset. Could the cat have been a cryptorchid with some testicular tissue remaining - look for spines on the penis or consider an HCG response test if possible - Could there be any other medical problems or endocrine imbalances - Hyperthyroid, anal sacculits, cystitis have all anecdotally at least been associated with aberrant or excessive sexual behavior. You may also want to post under repro and we'll see if Ilana has any other comments. Gary ================== Subj: Re:the cat goes back Date: 96-11-14 17:29:23 EST From: Gmlandvm P.S. My kids are a little older now but this was one of their favorite songs - sung by Fred Penner - Canadian kids singer extraordinaire - The cat goes back, the very next day, the cat goes back, we thought he was a gonner, the cat goes back - he just can't stay away - Meow - etc. (well soemthing like that except for the tense) ================== Subj: Re:Self mutilation Date: 96-11-14 19:00:47 EST From: DermaPet The response by Ilana on self mutilation/tail mutilation was quite comprehensive. I have two comments. One is that Huskies should always have Zinc supplements. There is debate as to the role of zinc in self mutilating bull terrier puppies with brain lesions (Nick Dodman's paper) in what was previously known as lethal acrodermatitis. The second is regarding the selection of clomiprimine (Anafranil) as"the drug of choice in human compulsive disorders". While I miss a lot of human literature, I try to keep up with the TCAs and SSRIs and have found that the current drug of choice has moved to Zoloft and Paxil from Prozac. This is a constantly evolving phenomena. I understand Dr. Landsburg's preference since clomiprimine is generic and a much less expensive alternative in Canada. I also appreciate the efforts by Ciba, who own the rights to clomiprimine and have well supported those of us interested in clinical psychopharmacology; they should be well along in their trials to bring this drug to the veterinary market which may put an end to this debate.. But, for several reasons, clinicians may prefer the reliablity of a single daily dose especially in a large dog where the end point may exceed the somehow created threshold of 200 mg of clomiprimine. The use of Zoloft and Prozac are more likely to be comlied with due to the once a day dosing. While none of these drugs have caused significant side effects in my hands. I am careful of seizures explaining the lowered threshold info but, as you described in this case, there is debate about whether these really are true seizures as we have previously defined them; while cardiac work-ups are also done I have not done EMGs or EEGs. Taking Prozac from 1 mg/kg up to 5 mg/kg is not something I have done very often. Yet, in the mutilation cases, I have tried them (AFTER extensive work-ups to eliminate the obvious) only because of previous success in similar cases at lower doses. The increases of approximately 1 mg/kg should be done at 3 week intervals to take into consideration the lag phase. Steve Melman ================== Subj: Re:Tail mutilation Date: 96-11-14 19:07:06 EST From: DermaPet Paul I agree with Ilana's assessment with the exception of the selection of drug. please see Self mutilation response, if interested. I have a special interest in the area of tail mutilation since my first non-ALD successful use of an SSRI (Prozac) was for this. I actually did a case report called a "Tale of (Tail) Mutilation" (some credit for the title should go to Gary Landsburg) in the AVSAB newsletter. And to think that this is a useless animal model....unless you include the lighthearted tail chasing that I have observed on the part of some younger colleagues during conventions! Steve Melman ================== Subj: Aggression Drug Date: 96-11-14 20:15:16 EST From: WoodstkDVM What are the best drugs available to Rx dominant aggressive dogs? (assuming we're also treating with behavior mod). How long are they used (for life?) Thanks ================== Subj: Aggressive When Leaving Date: 96-11-14 20:21:33 EST From: WoodstkDVM Im dealing with a dominant aggressive 3 year old Pitbull. One aspect of his behavior which is the scariest for the owners is that when they prepare to leave i.e. wash, get keys, overcoat, he will do alot of growling and staring at them. He never attacks but the growling has them totally spooked. He lets them leave fine and is well behaved while left alone. How should they handle his aggression during these departure times? Thanks ================== Subj: Hyperactive dog Date: 96-11-15 18:26:59 EST From: SAHDVM As a precursor-I feel really, really stupid asking this question but I promised the owner I would ask: A little old lady owns a little old doxie (12 yr. old MC) that is she feels is too hyperactive (for her). It sounds like the dog is just too active-wants occ. attention, won't sleep for days on end etc., I think that this dog, or probably any dog, is just too much for the owner's state of mind and health. The dog is otherwise fairly healthy and its labwork looks good. It is not senile. She really doesn't want to try behavioral modification and is looking for a quick fix, i.e. medication. Is there anything available ? It seems like this would fall into the dope-a-dog realm but I said I would ask... She doesn't want to find it a new home, we even offered to help, and is considering putting it down. Thanks, Marti ================== Subj: Re:the cat goes back Date: 96-11-16 07:56:41 EST From: MVYVET Gary, I'm glad you got the musical reference...it was intentional :) Michelle ================== Subj: Re:Aggression Drug Date: 96-11-16 10:08:52 EST From: Gmlandvm Answering this question is really sticking ones neck out because each type of aggression is seldom without other contributing factors - For example, drugs with antianxiety effects are often useful if the pet is overly reactive, fearful or nervous. On the other hand the only drugs that might be useful in some cases of dominance aggression are the SSRI's or progestins. Progestins have been a last resort for years and have a general pacifying/calming effect, some of which may be due to their antiandrogenic effects. SSRI's like fluoxetine have been utsed in the management of dominance aggression and in a recent study of 9 dogs by Nick Dodman in JAVMA, he reports a significant reduction. Dr. reisners work has found that some of the more explosive and dangerous forms of dominance aggression, that ultimately were euthanized had a lower level of serotonin metabolites in their CSF, indicating perhaps that SSRI's might be useful. As you stated, these drugs are perhaps useful for reducing the number, severity or intensity of the attacks, but it is the behavior modification that is needed to reestablish owner control. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive When Leaving Date: 96-11-16 10:36:21 EST From: Gmlandvm I would be very concerned that this behavior could escalate and that intervention to control this behavior (if the dog is highly aroused) could lead to retaliation rather than correction. Prevention is of course, a consideration - Denying the dog access to the owners when they are preparing to depart does little to correct the problem but does prevent the escalation. Determining the underlying cause and motivation for the growling is critical - Is this a dominance issue - Attention getting behavior - is there a learned component. Then deal with the underlying problems. Specifically, the owners could desensitize the dog to the departure cues by exposing the dog to the cues at non-departure times. While wearing a halter and leash, the dog can be commanded to sit and stay in its bed, or sleeping area while the owner exposes the dog to low levels of all of the departure cues. Using the halter and leash and rewards to ensure success, the cues are gradually intensified. At actual departure times, as mentioned, the dog can be denied access to owners, or, as it's training progresses, commanded to lie quietly in its corner, room and bed, and given rewards for compliance. A head halter and leash are again very useful tools. Assuming the dog is behaving appropriately, the dog can be given a special treat (e.g. Kong with cheese, Buster Cube) just before departing and the halter and leash or at least the leash, could be removed. By the way, regarding our drug discussion in the last posting, drugs may be needed for a few months until the owners reestablish a new and improved relationship and then they are gradually weaned off, or the drugs are maintained life long, for dogs that cannot be successfully weaned. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Hyperactive dog Date: 96-11-16 10:44:14 EST From: Gmlandvm It's sounds like you have a good grasp of the situation as to the owner, the dog, and the causes. As you stated, dope the dog is what the owner wants and even if you did consider drug therapy, you are not working to control a specific problem and could have other undesirable behavior or medical effects. You might want to consider a brief consultation to determine the owners major complaints - i.e. doesn't sleep at night, needs more exercise, attention getting behavior and see if there are some simple practical answers. Perhaps a friend or neighbourhood child to take the dog for an exercise period each evening, a brief discussion of how rewards and attention aggravate some problems, perhaps a halter and leash to insure better control, a few new toys to keep the dog occupied, or even some short term drug therapy such as a benzodiazepine, acepromazine, or even just an antihistamine such as diphenhydramine before bedtime to help the dog sleep better for a few nights. As behaviorists we look for drugs that control behavior with a minimum of side effects (e.g. buspirone as an antianxiety without sedation). Unfortunately this owner is looking for the side effects only (sedation, sleepiness). Gary ================== Subj: Jumping at the door Date: 96-11-16 17:22:08 EST From: Nogutz This post is about my own naughty cat, unfortunately. My 2 1/2 M/N DSH insists on jumping and banging on the bedroom door at night. We leave it closed at all times since my husband is mildly allergic, and not having cats and cat hair in the room prevents him from sneezing. However, at night, my cat howls and jumps at it, waking us up. I have to get up and lock him in the office, which then causes his littermate to meow and howl because she misses him and is looking for him. He used to do it about ten minutes before I was due to wake up anyway, but now he is doing it at 2 and 4 in the morning, which is eliciting threats of sending him to the pound from my husband. Is there anything I can do? He is in perfect health otherwise, except for being very stupid. ================== Subj: aggression prevention Date: 96-11-16 20:40:25 EST From: OCDick Client elected to destroy a 5 yr mn cocker after it decided to start using its teeth as enforcement of its wishes, and has replaced him with a pair of mixbreed male littermates. During the initial exam I mentioned the possibility of sibling rivalry, pecking orders etc, and they became quite concerned as to the probabilities of these guys developing some problems along those lines. Specifically, they do not want to have to give up one of the pups should they become unable to get along as they mature. I suggested neutering prepubertally, and being very sufre to show no favoritism, but they are wondering if there is anything else they can do to avoid the possibility of these two pups fighting as they get older. Any advice will be very welcome. Dick Headley ================== Subj: Aggressive when leaving Date: 96-11-16 21:38:24 EST From: WoodstkDVM Thanks for your input on handling this dog while the owners attempt to leave. You mentioned a halter in your comments. I routinely recommend them but have a problem answering this question or fear on the part of the owner:" How do I get it ON the dog? I'm scared he'll bite me"; or "He'll never let me get that thing on him!" As you know, dom agg dogs usually do not let their masters fool around their head/neck. By the way, which halters do you recommend and where can I purchase them? Thanks Much ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive when leaving Date: 96-11-16 23:26:59 EST From: Gmlandvm For specific information on head halters I would make a call to the people at premier Pet Products and get information on fitting and placing halters on problem dogs. They manufacture the Gentle/Leader Promise system - Dr. R.K. Anderson, the developer and inventor is more than willing to discuss the matter, set up seminars, etc. There are other halters but for indoor control it is essential that the owner can fit and leave on the halter for extended periods of time rather than halters for outdoor walking such as the halti. I think that one of the prognostic factors is indeed whether an owner can get a halter on and off, and an owner who can't may need the assistance of a trainer, veterinarian or drug therapy. These may also be the cases that might not be amenable to therapy. Some owners can't apply the halter because the dog is fearful of the consequences, so it is essential that owners use food rewards or providing other positive experiences, such as walks or play, immediately after halter application. Once the halter is applied, it should be kept on until the dog accomodates - for some dogs this may be a few hours or even all day. Halters need not be worn all the time (e.g. they can be taken off at bedtime or when the owner departs), but for serious problems we have occasionally had to leave halters on for a few days, until the owner has gained sufficient control and has practiced head and face handling (with rewards). I'm at home but I'll get you the appropriate phone numbers on Monday, if you don't have them. Gary ================== Subj: Re:aggression prevention Date: 96-11-16 23:31:56 EST From: Gmlandvm I could give all kinds of warnings and suggestions if aggression was emerging, but aggression between dogs in the same home is unlikely provided, a) the owners let the dog's interact and work out their hierarchy without interference, b) the owner gains sufficient control over both dogs so that neither dog begins to act possessive or overprotective of the owner and c) the owners understand (and live with) the fact that both dogs are not equal and that the hierarchy should be supported (i.e. don't give preferential treatment or encourage the subordinate to challenge the more dominant). Gary ================== Subj: Re:Jumping at the door Date: 96-11-16 23:40:48 EST From: Gmlandvm The simple answer is IGNORE - any attempts to quiet the cat, lock it up, shut it up, etc. simply provide attention and aggravate the problem further - can the cats be kept far enough away in a quiet area, away from your door that they can be ignored for a few nights - Can your door be better soundproofed or protected. A Scat Mat, or some other unpleasant substrate outside of your door at night might keep them a little farther away - Some people have used nested cardboard corrugated cartons (with sufficient air and circulation) around the cat cage to reduce noise. To attempt to get the cats to sleep through the night we suggest evening play and activity sessions (so the cat's do not cat nap in the evening) and drugs just prior to bedtime to help encourage nightitme sleeping for the first week or two (benzodiazepines, antihistamines, or acepromazine). Gary ================== Subj: Re:Self mutilation Date: 96-11-18 00:41:40 EST From: SFSNEURO Ilana: Thanks for your input. Sorry to have been so long in getting back. The neuro exam is normal and The patient was placed on Phnobarb by the referring veterinarian with no results. I will get you a Video. I presently have the patient as the owners cannot put up with the disorder and have seen a decrease in mutilation attacks when out of the traffic area of the clinic. Will try the clomipramine for starters. Thanks again Steve ================== Subj: Re:Self mutilation Date: 96-11-18 00:46:56 EST From: SFSNEURO Steve: Thanks for the additional information. I will keep trying suggestion and hope that something works. Steve ================== Subj: KITTEN CLASS Date: 96-11-18 13:05:38 EST From: SSJP7711 I'M A SMALL ANIMAL PRACTITIONER IN JAPAN. THE CAT POPULATION AS COMPANION ANIMALS IS INCREASING ALSO IN OUR COUNTRY. I'D LIKE TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT KITTEN CLASS. THANK YOU. SHOU. ================== Subj: Re: Behavior Beginner Date: 96-11-18 14:35:50 EST From: Atallicat Gary: THanks for the information! Melanie ================== Subj: Bed wetting Date: 96-11-18 15:06:55 EST From: DrLoriP To all: I have a patient that is a 5 month old Min. Pin. His owner has always complained that he urinates on his bed at night and lays on the urine soaked blanket. She walks him at 10-10:30 PM and by 5:00 AM he has soaked his bed. She has tried limiting H20 in Pm hours and while that helps the amount soiled, he will still urinate on his blanket. He stayed in our boarding facility last week and he did it then too. He was neutered 6 days ago. After the surgery, he eliminated inappropriately for a few days. I believe that Kaleb may just be a nasty little dog. Can anyone please suggest something for this owner to try. Thanks, Lori ================== Subj: Re:Self mutilation Date: 96-11-18 22:19:24 EST From: IlanaR Steve - I was only half joking about the video - if there is any way this could be made and sent I'd be appreciative and glad to reimburse for the videotape and postage. Thanks and I understand it could be tough - I've had my share of videotaping compulsive disorders - it's a sure cure. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Bed wetting Date: 96-11-18 22:24:04 EST From: IlanaR Lori - Do you have any sense from this client whether the dog is urinating voluntarily, dribbling small amounts, emptying his bladder while sleeping, etc.? Is he crated or otherwise restricted to his blanket? That information would be helpful. If he's crated and is just eliminating in his crate at night, it would also be helpful to know where the crate is (ie is it within hearing range of the owners) and what the puppy's attitude is about/while being crated. The differential would be (a) lack of housetraining, (b) urinary incontinence (neurogenic), and (c) separation anxiety or anxiety related to confinement if crated/restricted. Could the owner provide a little more information? thanks Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Bed wetting Date: 96-11-18 22:26:09 EST From: IlanaR Sorry - on second reading I have *more* questions :) - what makes you say he's nasty? And, finally, could you tell us more about the inappropriate urination? I assume you mean he urinated in the house but off the blanket? ....thanks Ilana ================== Subj: Golden Gobbler Date: 96-11-18 22:26:47 EST From: VISIOUSVET Client with 1 1/2 year old neutered Golden with history of chewing-up all of the plants in the backyard, the fence, and any plants that might be around. They do supply plenty of chew toys, and he is taken on a walk often, but not always. Their son is very attached to the dog and he does provide alot of attention to the dog. The owner never sees the dog do the chewing and I asked her if it seemed to occur more if the dog was not walked, and she did not know. Ilana, what else can we do to help them? Thanks, Wick ================== Subj: Re:KITTEN CLASS Date: 96-11-18 22:36:03 EST From: IlanaR Shou - Welcome to the behavior folder! I'm very happy to see a member posting from Japan. I personally don't have experience with kitten classes but they've been discussed periodically in this folder - perhaps others can provide some information? Basically kitten and puppy classes are an ideal opportunity for the practitioner to introduce general behavioral concepts - in the case of kittens the important topics (behaviorally) to consider would be (a) litterbox use (having an adequate number of boxes in the house, avoidance of perfumed litters, being sure the kitten has easy access to the box, and so on), (b) relationships between cats and dogs in the home, (c) scratching/clawing on furniture and how to deter, and how to provide appropriate scratching surfaces, (d) behavioral reasons to spay/neuter, (e) dealing with rambunctious play in kittens, and then other miscellaneous aspects of kitten behavior. If anyone else has input, please chime in - Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Bed wetting Date: 96-11-18 22:39:50 EST From: DrLoriP llana, Thanks for the quick response. I will have to ask the owner some of your questions tomorrow. But, I guess calling Kalebh a nasty little dog was probably unfair. He is crated. But he also did this(bed wetting) while staying in the boarding kennel. I realize that he could be anxious there too. I read once that dogs that aren't kept in clean conditions in the "nest" as a young pup could become less discriminating about how clean they keep their "den" or surroundings as an adult. I thought that this may apply to Kalebh. Hence, my diagnosis of nasty little dog. I felt better clearing that up tonight. I will gather more info tomorrow. Thanks, Lori :) ================== Subj: Re:Golden Gobbler Date: 96-11-18 22:43:03 EST From: IlanaR Wick - Did you say he's chewing the fence, too, or just plants growing on it? With a complaint like this I'd consider understimulation, simple enjoyment/pleasure, or (a distant third) exaggerated plant-eating for some reason -- assuming it's the first and second, I would ask a few more questions and perhaps get an "aerial" sketch of the yard, then talk to them about protecting some plants from being chewed with simple, inexpensive borders (low fences poked into the ground) or even underground fencing. I'm not a fan of underground fencing as the "main" containment for the dog, but it can work wonderfully to protect flowers, etc. I also would encourage them to rely more on supervised walks and supervised play in the yard, rather than leaving the dog to his own devices out there - vices are so common in understimulated outdoor dogs - barking, digging, fence-running, coprophagia, etc., and, in this case (maybe), plant-snacking. But if the problem seems more serious and perhaps borders on an abnormal excess, please let us know. Ilana ================== Subj: Please read :) Date: 96-11-18 22:53:14 EST From: IlanaR Now that there are two of us fielding all your interesting posts and questions, I hope all of you who read this, and whose posts in the recent past may not have been addressed/answered, will try to re-post. Dr. Gary Landsberg has come on board (welcome again, Gary :)) and we will both do our best to answer your questions or respond to your comments as soon as possible. I'm looking forward to some interesting threads, and welcome Gary's input (as always), even if he does talk funny, eh? :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Please Read. Date: 96-11-19 11:10:59 EST From: BoyDoctor Ilana, Sorry for the delay is responding, I have been having trouble with my computer. <<has there been any talk about certifying trainers>> yes there has been alot of discussion. We usually get stuck on "who" will ceritify and "who" will set the criteria. Some of the members want all those who use choke chains or prong collars, or anything other than positive reinforcement techniques to be banned from the group. Although, I personally, see "some" merit there, if we ban these types of trainers from our group how will we ever hope to educate them, or change their minds concerning current/positive approaches to training and/or behavior/ or learning theory. It is a tough call. Maybe you or others (please contribute) might have some suggestions on how to approach this delicate problem. I would be very interested in your thoughts either in this forum, phone, one of those chat rooms or e-mail. I know you (Ilana) belong to several groups, so you have some valuable experience in this area. I know we need some process of "screening" members so when we refer someone we are familar with the capabilities of that trainer. As you probably know we have a wide range of members, some just starting in this business, others 30+ years in the field, others with PhD's, and some veterinarians, all whose experience level differs. Again what would be the criteria? We have alot to consider and I welcome any suggestions. :) Kris ================== Subj: Re:KITTEN CLASS Date: 96-11-19 11:32:39 EST From: BoyDoctor Shou, I believe Terry Ryan in Washington (state) has started some kitten classes. You might try to e-mail her at: 74650.1301@compuserve.com Her phone number is 509-332-2831. Terry has also done many presentations in Japan you might want to ask her when she'll return to Japan for another lecture/presentation. Good Luck! Kris ================== Subj: bed wetting 2 Date: 96-11-19 12:28:35 EST From: DrLoriP llana, I have asked the owner more questions concerning Kalebh (the 7 month old Min. Pin. that is wetting is bed) (1) The client tells me that she hasn't witnessed the voiding while Kalebh was in his crate. But, one morning she set him in the bed and he urinated while she thought he was asleep. This occured the day after Kaleb came home from being neutered. (2) Kaleb's crate is in the laundry room. He is anxious when they crate him and leave. But at night he volunteers to get into the crate at bedtime and seems comfortable in there. Last night they left his crate door open and closed the laundry room door. They left newspapers in the floor hoping that he would use the papers. This morning his bedding in the crate was wet as usual. (3) Finally, Kaleb is not completely house trained. He does urinate and deficate when they take him out. He will urinate while in the house. He makes no effort to hide the act. He will urinate right in front of his owner. The owner said that he breaks housetraining mostly when he is playing. She is under the impression that he is having too much fun and is too lazy to go to the door. He vever deficates in the house. that is all that was gatered this morning. Thank you for your assistance. I will be awaiting your opinion. Lori ================== Subj: Fear Aggression Date: 96-11-19 14:21:36 EST From: BHVetHosp Dear Doctors, I have been presented with a German Shorthaired Pointer, 3 yr. old, neutered male ( neutered at 6 months of age). The dog shows fear aggression when handled at the vets, and also owner reports that the dog shows fear submission in her boyfriend's presence at home. Owner is very worried and wondered if there is anything else that she can do outside of parting with either her boyfriend or the dog. The dog cowars and tries to bite the boyfriend as soon as the man enters the room the dog is in. The dog also urinates in the spot in which he is cowaring. The owner has tried many different techniques using counterconditioning, positive reinforcement and obedience training with a reputable trainer in thier own home. Nothing has helped, in fact, the owner said the dog worsened with the trainer. The trainer called me and said she had noticed some fly-biting behavior and asked if I would give the dog another physical exam and run some bloodwork to rule out any neurologic condition other than epilepsy. I examined the dog. The physical exam was nonremarkable. The CBC was within normal limits. The chem. panal showed globulins at 2. ( normal range is 2.3-4.9), and cholesterol just a hint above normal; all else normal. I started the dog on amitriptyline at 100 mg. SID for 30 days to start and gave some for advice on flooding and very gentle use of positive desensitization with the owner and boyfriend present together at home. I also recommened a consult with Ilana Reisner. Owner tried to call Dr. Reisner and was told she'd be away for a few months. We started the amitriptyline on Sept. 10, 1996. Owner called October 9, 1996 and reported the dog had made no improvement. Still scared of boyfriend, whining, submissively urinates when the man walks by the dog and has very dilated pupils with wide eyes(and cowars). Owner said dog , though, had been defecating in odd spots around the house soon after the boyfriend had moved in and that that behavior has stopped. We tried then switching to valium 10 mg. at 1 to 1 1/2 tablets 2-3 times daily as antianxiety medication. Owner called 11/15/96 and reported that the valium is not helping so she discontinued it. Please help ! Where do I go in advising the owner from here ( parting with the dog is not an option to her) ? Neither is parting with the boyfriend! Thank you! Dr. Jennifer Everett ( Burnt Hills Veterinary Hospital Burnt Hills, N.Y.). ================== Subj: Re:Golden Gobbler Date: 96-11-19 19:38:22 EST From: VISIOUSVET Ilana, thank you. Wick ================== Subj: Fearfull Agressive Date: 96-11-19 20:12:46 EST From: CanVet A 4 yr old MN (at 6 mos of age) has been having problems with agression towards children and unfamiliar dogs when on a leash. The problem has been corrected somewhat with the promise collar. The problem is progressive in nature, and the two owners (young yuppies) have had him since 7 wks of age. The dog eats PC special dinner dry. He gets 1 hr exercise/day. He is left alone in house 3 hrs max per day. He has no health problems and is on no medication. It seems like a case of leash agression, but can anyone educate me in why this happens and what I can say to the clients on how to act and retrain. Right now they yell at dog, or pick him up when he is acting this way. He is fine with dogs after he knows them and when off the leash. The female owner says he is worse when she walks him. She must go out of her way to avoid dogs and kids on walks. Any suggestions?? Kris. ================== Subj: Re:Fear Aggression Date: 96-11-19 22:50:15 EST From: IlanaR Dr. Everett - I've emailed you about this dog :). I agree she needs a referral at this point so hopefully something can be worked out. Ilana Reisner ================== Subj: Re:Fearful Aggressive Date: 96-11-19 23:00:45 EST From: IlanaR Kris - Aggression on the leash is probably either territorial or fear-related (and typically both) - it's also typical that the dog would be better off lead. Restraint tends to intensify aggression, which is why, in modifying agg. behavior, efforts are made to keep the lead loose with the dog in a reliable "stay" (which takes lots of training and proofing, in varied environments). You would need to build up to difficult stimuli, but start with less provocative ones. Sometimes anxiolytic drug tx helps, but unfortunately it's not a cure. Children can be recruited (with parents' permission and with safety in mind) to do things like walk past, run past, skip around, ride bikes and so on, while the dog is rewarded for good behavior. Eventually the children should be able to offer (by gently tossing) treats. Secondary reinforcers like bells help quite a lot (so the bell is associated with good things - food, and kids). The head collar is pretty essential for control of the dog. Hope that helps Ilana ================== Subj: Re:bed wetting 2 Date: 96-11-19 23:09:09 EST From: IlanaR Lori - The first comment you made about the dog urinating while apparently asleep does sound like an enuresis of some kind - I wonder if this still occurs as the dog's healed from castration and recovered from preanesthetics etc. The owners would need to confirm that it still occurs. As far as the behavior otherwise, at least based on what you've described, it sounds like they're dealing with a pup with no interest in elimination substrates or locations - he eliminates somewhat randomly (while awake). So I'd initiate a young puppy program with him - if the owners are willing, it would help to set the alarm in the middle of the night to get him out for urination, to help keep the bed dry. They had the right idea with leaving the crate open and providing newspapers - but if he doesn't have a preference for soft, dry surfaces (for sleep) this is unlikely to work. I'd keep that up, though. During all waking hours he should be closely supervised or confined, and given freedom only after he urinates, and only for an hour or so. They should start a diary of his eliminations. I've had the best luck with frequent changes of bedding, and frequent trips outside to a regular toilet area, with owners taking the initiative during the night as well (it's temporary :)). They shouldn't rely at all on the concept of signalling (ie they shouldn't count on him telling them he needs to go out - he doesn't care!). Hope that helps. If the problem persists during sleep, please let us know. At least from what you described, it doesn't sound like sep anxiety. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:KITTEN CLASS Date: 96-11-19 23:09:30 EST From: SSJP7711 THANK YOU ILANA. SEE YOU AGAIN IN OSAKA. SHOU. ================== Subj: Re:KITTEN CLASS Date: 96-11-19 23:19:22 EST From: SSJP7711 THANK YOU, BOYDOCTOR. I HAVE STUDIED DOG TRAINING IN TERRY RYAN'S SEMINAR IN JAPAN. I'LL ASK HER ABOUT KITTEN CLASS. SHOU. ================== Subj: Aggressive M/C G. Shep Date: 96-11-20 00:20:35 EST From: PaulaVMD I am currently working with a client that is having aggression problems with her 4 year old M/C G. Shep. The dog is fine with people. The problem is with her other dog, an 8 year old M/C Lab mix. It is unclear from the owner's description when the aggression is more likely to occur. The G. Shep does play roughly with the other dog, according to the owner, and many incidents occur during play. The G. Shep will grab at the Lab's throat and tug (very hard) but he never breaks the skin. But the G. Shep also stands over the Lab and will block the Lab's movements in the house. The G. Shep doesn't usually have problems with other dogs (he will occasionally get into altercations - usually when on a leash). The problem seemed to begin about a year ago, when the owner moved from AZ to PA. Previously, the G. Shep had been kept as an outdoor dog (and did engage in fence fighting with the neighboring dog). Now it is kept indoors with the Lab. The problem is that the Lab is an epileptic and these aggressive episodes are triggering seizures. Another vet placed the dog on Elavil about 6 months ago. Currently, this 72 lb dog is on 50mg BID. I started the owner on a behavior modification system a couple of months ago. The dog is doing well with a deference protocol. And the owner is working at the sit-stay program. The dog walks around the house with a leash & collar so that the owner can pull the dog out of a bad situation. However, the last 2 times the G. Shep has been so intent on the Lab that the owner was physically unable to pull the dog away. The episodes appear less frequent, but perhaps more intense. The owner also commented that the dog acts "nervous" and "can't stay still". She's not sure when she first noticed this change in behavior (after the move, after the Elavil, etc.) I've suggested placing a Promise collar on the dog instead of the traditional collar for better on-leash control. The owner is stepping up the behavior modification (she has not worked much with counter-conditioning techniques so far). She is trying to keep the dogs separate, but this is difficult. Besides increasing the dose of Elavil (which I've considered), are there any other suggestions? Any other drugs to try? Another vet suggested valium, but I didn't think it would be of any benefit over Elavil. Would hormone therapy be a last resort option since this is inter-male aggression? I'd appreciate any input on this case that anyone can offer. Thanks in advance, Paula. ================== Subj: Promise Collars Date: 96-11-20 06:54:32 EST From: Drvetpet Hi, sorry for such a benign question. But does anyone have the name and address of the Co. that manufactures or distributes the " promise" training collar. Thks. By the way Ilana, you're right this board is very busy and a wonderful forum. George eh! ================== Subj: Re:Promise Collars Date: 96-11-20 12:43:27 EST From: Gmlandvm Promise is now known once again as Gentle Leader - Premier Pet Products in the U.S. is the manufacturer and distributor 800-933-5595 and in Canada they are available from Professional Animal Behavior Associates Inc at 529-685-4756. Gary ================== Subj: Interdog Aggression Question Date: 96-11-20 14:29:15 EST From: Jeff M VMD How strong is the relationship between hypothyroidism and aggression? Is hypothyroid aggression seen in one breed more than another? Should it be recommended that all aggressive dogs have a T3T4 drawn? This is just more for general info than for a specific case. Thanks. Amy ================== Subj: Re:Interdog Aggression Quest Date: 96-11-20 22:43:31 EST From: Gmlandvm There is little in print except a few anecdotal cases to link hypothyroidism and aggression. However, any endocrine imbalance can lead to behavior change and some behaviorists do feel that there is a relationship. Nick Dodman at Tufts, has some yet to be published work where he has seen hypothyroidism in aggressive dogs, and they have responded to thyroid supplementation. Check with the endocrinologists on VIN, but I think that a total T4 is a good screening test and if it is low or low normal, proceeding to a TSH and perhaps a free T4 by equilibrium dialysis would help to rule out a sick euthyroid dog. Since the jury is still out in my mind, I do run a T4, basic profile, cbc and urine (at least) on all my aggressive behavior cases. Gary ================== Subj: carbamazepine--canine dosag Date: 96-11-21 13:21:15 EST From: RunnrPam I have a young male (neutered) doberman that has "episodes"of aggression that remind me of seizure activity--or at least some biological change going on. The dog was biopsied and treated for severe IBD as puppy. The owners are excellent care takers and handlers and have been in dobes for years. This was a purchased show puppy. I read an article by Karen Overall in October DVM and am interested in trying carbamazepine on this dog. I have not been able to find a canine dosage. Any help? Pam ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive M/C G. Shep Date: 96-11-22 08:18:55 EST From: IlanaR Paula- The aggression or aggressive play is triggering seizures in the lab? Grand mal? That's interesting - I'm curious what actually happens here. Is the lab fighting back at all? This is just a matter of opinion or style in handling cases like this - I work at getting the owners to keep a diary of altercations, challenges, growling, standing over, etc., any and all negative or disturbing interactions between the dogs. Then they try to anticipate the behavior and avoid it, which is *much* more productive than interrupting the behavior once it starts. Because much interdog conflict is based on dominance, it helps to remove "privileges" from both dogs - not just one. Also to play down exciting situations (greetings, playing with toys, wrestling with dogs). Better to keep them exposed to each other as much as possible - separation at this stage can intensify aggression or conflicts. I agree they really need a Promise/Gentle Leader on this dog but also increased voice control - hence the sit-stay training BID or more, and nothing in life is free. As far as the Germ. Shep. specifically - he sounds like a dog that would benefit from counterconditioning exercises - lots of emphasis on down-stays - along with increased aerobic exercise. I can't tell from your post (these histories are really not sufficient and full consults help) whether this is a candidate for drug therapy - unfortunately (??) most cases like this are normal dogs that need some behavioral manipulations. Drugs don't change personality very well (except for sedatives). Elavil would be most likely to help if the dog is anxious. Progestin tx might help if it's a straightforward case of dominance agg, but effects are **very** inconsistent. SSRI tx might help if it's straightforward dominance, as well. I'm skeptical, though, that drugs will make a difference in this dog. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:carbamazepine--canine dos Date: 96-11-22 11:05:23 EST From: Gmlandvm Here's what I know about carbamazepine in dogs - never used it, but there is one case report of its use in an aggressive cat by Stephanie Schwartz, AAHA journal, Sept/October 1994, p. 515. I have a listed dose of 5-15 mg tid - In humans blood levels of 4-10 micrograms per ml need to be maintained to prevent toxicity, but lower doses may be effective in pets. Side effects include gastrointestinal upset and locomotor difficultiess and the drug is contraindicated with renal, hepatic, cardiovascular, or hematologic disorders. It's half life in dogs may be as little as 1-2 hours. I know that after conversations with neurologists, the toxicity, effectiveness and difficulty in monitoring carbamazepine in comparison to phenobarbital, phenobarbital is a much a better first choice when seizure activity is suspected - In fact, if you haven't done so already, why not post on pharmacology and neurology to get their input - I'll take a peek over there because I'd like to see their response. Gary ================== Subj: Separation anxiety Date: 96-11-22 11:18:46 EST From: BHVetHosp Dear Doctor, I have been presented with a neutered male, 8 yr. old Saluki. One month ago the dog started urinating in house and acting very anxious when left alone. Tries to tear apart the bedding and the house when left alone. No excessive thirst. Another vet. did lab. work which showed a urine S.G. of 1.019; alk. phos. of 257 (1-70) -the only abnormalities found. No other signs of cushings ds. The dog was started on Elavil 50 mg. at 1 1/2 tabs. SID P.O. I saw the dog 11/9/96 for weight loss, lost 6. lbs. over the past year, salivating all over self and kennel while owner at work, blood streaks in stool (colitis), eats well, very nervous dog, pants alot, thin. I put dog on metronidazole and wormed because has had a history of tapeworms. I saw dog 11/21/96. Dog still very nervous when owner leaves in kennel while at work. Puddles of saliva in kennel. Owner thinks dog struggles all day long. Owner has tried leaving on music and giving dog various toys-no help. Dog has worn all incisors down to gum line. I also checked a U/A and it showed a S.G. of 1.032 and all normal. On P.E. nothing was remarkable except the worn incisors, and thin. I increased dog's Elavil dose to 50 mg. at 2 1/2 tabs. SID P.O. and gave advice on desensitization ( gradually introducing back into kennel and giving dog more exercise and attention when owner is home-or could look into a pet sitter situation while onwer is at work). Owner is very interested in a consult with Dr. Reisner when she is in the Albany area. Is there any other advice I can give this client for the next several weeks? Has no time to go to Cornell. Thank you! Dr. Jennifer Everett Burnt Hills Veterinary Hospital Burnt Hills, N.Y. P.S. Dog weighs 64 1/2 lbs. ================== Subj: Aggressive dog last chance Date: 96-11-22 13:31:40 EST From: AltheaVet There may not be any thing that can help this dog at this point but I am fishing for any ideas. "Brandy" is a 3-4 year old FS spaniel cross adopted from the shelter. She has a confirmed beef food allergy & is on hyposensitization for concurrent atopy and I have seen her many times for her ear & skin flare ups. She has always been fearful in my office and only certain technicians can work with her. I have always had to muzzle her in the owner's presence but not if the owner is not present. I had not realized the extent of her behavior problems until today when the owner came in to tell me his wife insists that the dog must either be adopted (I don't believe any rational person would adopt her) or euthed. At home the dog seems to have a dominance related aggression. She is possessive over toys and food to the point of baring teeth & biting. She is extremely territorial with workmen or with the friends of the children of the family. She will bare teeth, bark, and chase them. Yesterday she bit the owner's wife as she tried to remove the dog from a room where the dog was threatening a workman. The dog bit the owner during a frenzy to get out of a bath. The dog does not generally direct aggression toward the owner, only to the wife, the children and to strangers. The owner has been working with a trainer at home but I am not sure this person really is equipped to deal with this type of problem. The dog is now pretty well obedience trained and the trainer is having the owner jerk the dog on a leash worn all the time during aggressive episodes (plus verbal reprimands). In school, I was taught a more indirect method of dealing w/aggression (by Ben Harte) but at this point the wife (who I think is the person who really must work with the dog) is either afraid or simply doesn't want to work with the dog anymore. I feel bad that I was not informed about the extent of this problem until the very end and am hoping that the dog can get maybe a month's reprieve while something effective can be instituted. Do you have any suggestions? Is there any medication that might be used to supplement behavioral modification in this situation? Thanks for any help, Sorry this is so long, altheaVet ================== Subj: MN cat mounting FS cat Date: 96-11-22 14:47:03 EST From: Leah DVM I neutered both these cats so I know procedures done with no complications. Cats are littermates and are 20 months old. Neutering of both occurred at 7 months of age. Owner first contacted me about behavior when male was approximately 16 months old. Now the problem is getting more frequent (happening every day, sometimes several times each day). There is also a spayed female dog in household. Additionally, male if FIV positive, but currently asymptomatic. Anyone had any success with treatment other than hormones? If look to hormones for treatment, which ones should I use? ================== Subj: Re:Separation anxiety Date: 96-11-22 18:47:23 EST From: Gmlandvm I'll mention some of the myriad of techniques often needed for separation anxiety cases, but it is the type of problem that is not helped by a bit of advice or an overview. I would suggest that you (or the person you refer to) look closely at the pet's medical and behavioral history to determine why, at 8 years of age, the dog has become so much more anxious. Teaching independence from the owners while at home, never allowing attention on demand, teaching sit-stay in a "relaxation" area with comfortable music and items to keep the dog occupied, and gradually teaching longer down-stays until the owner can leave the room without the dog following, are the first steps in "altering" the overdependence. Identifiying and removing those cues that might be associated with departure and anxiety, or desensitizing the dog to the cues, giving no attention prior to departure, but plenty of exercise well before departure, graduated departures, special treats to occupy the dog when leaving, and drug therapy may all need to be combined in a treatment program. I think that after all this time and drug therapy, if there is no significant improvement, the pet sitter or day boarding answer might be the best until you get that behavior referral. Speak to Dr. Reisner in person if she's seeing the case, to determine if she wants any more laboratory tests and what drug therapy (if any) she wants the dog to have prior to the visit. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive dog last chanc Date: 96-11-22 19:03:08 EST From: Gmlandvm I seem to be suggesting referrals today, a little more than I usually do, but I just think that there are some cases (dominance aggression / separation anxiety to name just two), that need a lot more than a few words of wisdom or some drug therapy. Unfortunately this type of case is one of them. To begin with the prognosis is guarded because there is overt aggression to family members, and an owner who is reluctant to deal with the problem (and understandably so). However, when we look at the prognosis in these cases we need an owner who is willing to commit to the time, effort, and potential risks of a correction program and who understands that most of these dogs can only be controlled, not cured. The prognosis is also improved by the expertise and practicality of the solutions provided by the consultant, and made much worse by incorrect advice (such as trainers who suggest jerk and pull techniques which tend to increase fear and defensiveness). Generally these cases take 2 hours or more to diagnose and counsel, and possibly additional laboratory workup and drug therapy. They then take weeks to months for the owners to turn things around, if possible. Identifying all potential causes of aggression so that they can be avoided and prevented, training the dog that the owner controls all resources and that only appropriate responses to commands, handling and training earns rewards, the use of a Promise halter and remote leash for control at all times the owner is around (unless the dog is confined) and then gradually training the dog to accept the type of handling and approaches that previously led to aggression (using a desensitization/counterconditioning approach) are generally all needed to improve safety and turn the problem around. SSRI's, such as fluoxetine, and progestins may improve some of these dogs to a point that they are more amenable to owner control and correction, but drugs alone are unlikely to effect significant improvement. Gary ================== Subj: Buspar failure Date: 96-11-22 19:33:41 EST From: Avhgl An owner presented a 5 year old FS DSH cat with a chief complaint of urine spraying in the house for one year. It often occurs directly in front of the owner and occurs in many locations in the house. The cat also urinates while standing (both in and out of the litter box) in addition to spraying. It is an indoor cat but is also tied outside. There are multiple companion cats in the house and multiple neighborhood cats in the yard. Neighborhood dogs also come through the yard and the cat has been observed to attack one of these dogs frequently when it ventures into the yard. Physical exam was non remarkable with the exception of being overweight by 2.5 lbs. and dental disease. Buspar at 5 mg BID was tried without success. The owner cannot commit to changing the environmental situation or changing the cat's routine. What other pharmacologic approach can be suggested? Greg Leck Ackermanville, PA ================== Subj: Re:Buspar failure Date: 96-11-23 11:02:25 EST From: Gmlandvm As long as the cat has the "competition" of so many others and continues to have access to marked or sprayed areas, there is a fairly good chance that drugs (alone) will be ineffective. You also mention the cat eliminating in front of the owners, and that the elimination is both horizontal and vertical - I would question whether spraying in a multi cat household is the only problem going on here - In any case, we all know that owners want quick fixes to problems but without the diagnostics (medical and behavioral) and then some time, effort, forethought, and perhaps drugs thrown in, we greatly decrease (or eliminate) the possibility of success. If the owners insist on trying drugs alone, at least have them do a bloodl profile, one or more urinalyses and a T4, to determine some baseline results before drugs are started, and of course, to see if there are underlying problems. Diazepam probably has the highest reported success rate (75% or more in some studies), but of course there's the hepatotoxicity problem. Amitriptyline, fluoxetine or paroxetine, and progestins have also proven effective for some cases. Be sure to review the doses, potential side effects, and contraindications for each of these drugs before use. Information on each can be found in the chapter on pharmacology by Simpson and Simpson in the 1995 VLS publication, Readings in Companion Animal Behavior, and in the AAHA book, Practitioner's Guide to Pet Behavior Problems that Wayne Hunthausen and I co-authored in 1995. A general word of caution - any antianxiety drug can inhibit fear and increase aggression in a multi cat household. . ================== Subj: Re:MN cat mounting FS cat Date: 96-11-23 11:14:51 EST From: Gmlandvm Is the male doing any harm? What is the females reaction? You would think that if the female is not willing or capable of stopping the male's advances, that it is unlikely that you would be able to help out. It is not unusual for male mounting behavior to develop or persist in a proportion of neutered animals, and although it is different than in dogs, it does likely have some elements of play and dominance. If it really needs to be stopped, then keeping the cats separate when the owners are not around, training the male to wear a harness with a leash attached, and then supervising interactive play using a water rifle, ultrasonic device, alarm or best of all a quick tug on the leash, should help to deter and inhibit the behavior. Desensitization and counterconditioning is another option when they are being placed together but this works best if there are fear and aggressive elements - If it is rough play (as long as there are no injuries) allowing it to continue (and interrupting when the cats get carried away) may be sufficient. Redirecting play to catnip toys, chase toys, etc. may also help. Under normal circumstances, I am reluctant to use progestins although they are probably best at reducing the male oriented portion of the behavior. I'm not a pharmacologist or internist, but I would think that in an FIV positive cat the immunosuppression caused by progestins could lead to disastrous consequences. It's unlikely that any of our other behavioral drugs which work to decrease anxiety or aggression would target this behavior although the SSRI's like fluoxetine have been associated with decreased sexual interest in people. Of course there are also reports of uncontrollable ejaculation in some males on certain antidepressants - so it's a hit and miss proposition (perhaps thats a bad choice of terms) Gary ================== Subj: Re:Buspar failure Date: 96-11-23 16:31:37 EST From: Avhgl Dear Gary, Sounds like you know what I'm up against here, and I agree with your assessments. Thanks for the suggestions. Greg Leck ================== Subj: Cat behavior Date: 96-11-24 21:27:24 EST From: RonK23 An owner asked me recently about her cat's behavior. This is a young adult female who loves to dig when she is fed, as if to bury her food, and also likes to play with her water bowl and drag it across the room and then drinks from it, after the whole ritual. What is the significance of these rituals? There are 2 cats who live together and get along. Faith ================== Subj: Re:Interdog Aggression Quest Date: 96-11-25 07:01:46 EST From: IlanaR Regarding thyroid function and aggression - while I was at Cornell we screened it in aggressive dogs for year or so (inconsistently) - looking at free and bound T3T4 and autoabs, but didn't find any in that batch that were measurably hypothyroid. Dr. Jean Dodds' had found hypothyroidism in dogs exhibiting aggression, and if my memory is correct, they were not showing other clinical signs of endocrinopathy, but did respond to thyr. supplementation. I admit I haven't checked recently but, like Gary, don't feel very conclusive about it. Gary - have you found any abnormal responders? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Interdog Aggression Quest Date: 96-11-25 07:03:24 EST From: IlanaR By the way, Dodds' findings were published but not in refereed journals - they should be available in libraries. I believe she published in Dog World, DVM Magazine, and *possibly* AKC Gazette/Purebred Dogs. This would have been circa 1991-1992. ================== Subj: Re:Separation anxiety Date: 96-11-25 07:08:35 EST From: IlanaR Has this dog always been crated when alone? Any chance they could experiment with a different form of restriction? Some dogs do remarkably well when released from the confines of a crate - it's the enclosure that appears to panic them (when alone). Unfortunately, others consider the whole house a kind of giant crate and destroy doors/windows etc. to escape - but gating (not shutting) the dog in a relatively dogproof area might help, as might the addition of a benzodiazepine to the Elavil, eg alprazolam 0.022 mg/kg 1 hour before leaving, prn up to TID. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive dog last chanc Date: 96-11-25 07:16:23 EST From: IlanaR I ditto Gary's comments on this dog - the general principles are pretty clear when it comes to tx of aggression, but the cases benefit most from individual counseling and troubleshooting for the particular family involved - plus there is much time (> an hour) spent in my cases, and I'm sure Gary is up there too, just explaining the "theory" behind the tx plan so that owners really understand both risks and the lifelong changes in management, etc. It kind of selects for certain types of owners - first level, they seek help. Second level, they seek referral (or treatment by their veterinarian). Third, they choose to treat the problem and are able to deal with risks and lifestyle changes/limitations (assuming the dog is manageable at all). By the time owners get to this third "level" they are either very committed to the tx program, or feel they've tried hard and understand the aggression isn't their fault and either accomodate to it or euth./rehome the dog. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Interdog Aggression Quest Date: 96-11-25 10:35:02 EST From: Gmlandvm I must have screened, or asked the referring veterinarian to screen every aggressive case for thyroid dysfunction and last week may have found one (after literally hundreds of cases) However, I don't know if the tests were indeed run or what the results were on every case - The answer is that they may exist and should be screened for but don't expect a slew of them. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive M/C G. Shep Date: 96-11-25 14:23:44 EST From: PaulaVMD Ilana, Thanks for the reply. Yes, it's an interesting case. The older Lab is epileptic and the owner claims that the excitement of these aggressive episodes sets off seizures (sorry, I don't know how intense they get - but I'll find out). The Lab does appear to submit to the G. Shep. For example, when the G. Shep blocks the Lab's path the Lab will turn around and walk the other way rather than interact with the other dog. I have already asked the owner to keep a diary, which she is hopefully doing, since she is not sure herself what is happening between the dogs. I also recommended videotaping the dogs, but she doesn't have access to a camera. The owner states that the dog is doing well with the deference ("nothing in life is free") protocol. She has just started working on sit-stay/counterconditioning exercises with the G. Shep. I will recommend that she practice these exercises at least BID, as you suggested. And I will also recommend that she no longer try to keep the dogs separated. I think the owner was trying to protect the epileptic, but I can see how the separation might actually intensify feelings when the dogs are together. I had not thought of removing privelages from both dogs ... what, specifically, does this mean, however? Are you referring to removing toys, social contact, etc after an aggressive interaction? Or is there another meaning here? Do you recommend using the deference protocol on both dogs? Thanks for the input. I will relay this information to the owner and I'll keep you posted on our progress! Paula. ================== Subj: Re:Interdog Aggression Quest Date: 96-11-25 22:07:45 EST From: Pat Melese To add my two cents worth. I too have practitioners screen (or I do) for thyroid problems in dogs, but after about 10 years of behavior practice I have yet to find one case that I thought hypothyroidism was a significant part of the case. The articles that Dr. Dodds sent me when I asked her about the association were all anecdotal reports none of which appeared to have been evaluated by a qualified behaviorist to get a definitive behavior diagnosis and evaluate the treatment plan and course of response. Well controlled studies searching out any possible real cause and effect with thyroid dysfunction and behavior problems would be most welcome. Anecdotally I do have a badly spayed female spraying cat who's owner just drove down to see me from Orange County (that's just by L.A. for those outside the area) Saturday as her cat continued to spray "everywhere" after referring DVM had tried Depo-provera (not usually recommended for this presentation) and Prozac without much sucess. Her panel came back with about 4.75 T4 via RIA; who knows if it is related to her spraying but I am sure going to recommend the RDVM to follow up on hyperthyroid suspect as I work the behavior angle. Keep up the interesting discussion ! Pat Melese Veterinary Behavior Consultants San Diego CA ================== Subj: old sheltie urinates in hous Date: 96-11-26 08:48:37 EST From: POVARAH A 15 year old (m) sheltie started to defecate and/or urinate in the house when left alone-- the owners may be in another part of the house or totally gone from the house. The dog does not leak stool or urine. Also pet has become slightly"snappy" when gets picked up. Physical, BW, urine all WNL for old dog. Signs have been for about 6 months. Any medication to try for this type of problem? Thanks, MArk ================== Subj: Re:old sheltie urinates in h Date: 96-11-26 10:32:29 EST From: Gmlandvm Coming soon to a vet clinics near you - I'm actually authoring a chapter for an upcoming geriatric veterinary clinics that covers this very topic - There are still numerous medical differentials that need to be ruled out - When you say the urine is normal is it concentrating well? If the SG is in the isosthenuric range you need to work up further because even the most minor causes of polycypsia and polyuria in an older dog could lead to decreased control - Once the dog starts eliminating in the home without the owner catching it in the act, (regardless of the cause), it's like training a puppy - You need to supervise, prevent access to soiled areas, take outdoors and reward, confine when not supervised to prevent resoiling and break the habit. If cognitive decline is suspected a deprenyl trial at .5 mg/kg for 30 days may be worthwhile. Another reference that has been published is an article on housesoiling in the older dog by Dr. Wayne Hunthausen in an August 1995 supplement to Veterinary Medicine. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive M/C G. Shep Date: 96-11-26 11:53:44 EST From: IlanaR Paula -- Thanks for the info and update. <<I will also recommend that she no longer try to keep the dogs separated>> Of course, separation might be the safest tactic - but by continuing to give them exposure to each other the owner can avoid intensifying aggression. Better, for example, to have muzzled dogs together than unmuzzled dogs apart. <<I had not thought of removing privileges from both dogs ... what, specifically, does this mean, however? Are you referring to removing toys, social contact, etc after an aggressive interaction? Or is there another meaning here? Do you recommend using the deference protocol on both dogs?>> The latter - if neither dog gets to eat first, petted first, get preferential attention, etc., the source of conflict between the dogs is reduced. I don't mean doing these things only after an episode, but at all times - eg I would suggest no toys on the floor if toys are "potent", then offer both dogs toys after both are sitting, etc. All sources of conflict are removed - neither dog is massaged and petted in front of the other (and the GSD, never without sitting etc. The lab can get a "sneak" pet when the GSD is out of the room) Hope that makes sense Ilana ================== Subj: Re:old sheltie urinates in h Date: 96-11-26 11:59:33 EST From: IlanaR In addition to Gary's comments, when treating these old guys like they're puppies again, it's also important for owners to realize that they may be dealing with declining cognitive function - less ability to learn, to make appropriate decisions, etc. so it may be long term (read: permanent) disorder for which solutions range from restriction (some old dogs with dementia-related inapp. elimination still are inhibited from eliminating in small areas), to diapers, to just being kind and offering a roomful of newspapers, etc. If there are any signs of cog. dysfunction eg disorientation, purposeless wandering, staring into space, and so on, trial use of l-deprenyl (Eldepryl) would be a good idea. :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Interdog Aggression Quest Date: 96-11-26 12:19:41 EST From: IlanaR OK, I dug up my old files for the Dodds articles. She has one in Dog World Oct. 1992 p. 40 ("Thyroid can alter behavior"), DVM Mag. May 1992 ("Apply systemic diagnostic plan to assess aggression: behavior linked to thyroid dz"). She illustrates her points with two cases, so they do not go beyond the anecdotal range (which sometimes can be very interesting, though). Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Aggressive M/C G. Shep Date: 96-11-26 21:44:28 EST From: PaulaVMD Thanks for the response -- it was very helpful. I will discuss these suggestions with the owner -- and now I can better explain the reasoning behind it! I wil certainly keep you posted on the dog's progress. Thanks again! Paula. ================== Subj: Separation Anxiety? Date: 96-11-27 00:52:42 EST From: ScoVetHosp This case is one of a distraught dog and owner. Two months ago this couple sold all they had and moved the rest from B.C. to Hawaii. They have two dogs, Lhasa X's, littermates, 8 years old. Two weeks in Hawaii, he tells her its over. She returns home to B.C. Her one dog develops renal failure that is non-responsive to treatment and hence is euthanized. Problem, since then the remaining dog defecates, urinates in the house when she is gone from home, and howls and salivates. She comes home to a disaster, an upset dog and upset neighbours. We have tried crating,makes things worse, acepromazine , amytriptyline and taking dog everwhere with her. Any suggestions? Prozac? Corry ================== Subj: Juvenile Neurobiology (K9) Date: 96-11-27 01:40:16 EST From: AECAREINC Help! I am a senior pre-vet student muddling through a research project. I am in search of reference materials concerning neurobiology of the canine neonate and its affect on the trainability and behavior in the dog. I live 2 hours from Ft Collins and do have access to the veterinary library there. All suggestions will be greatly appreciated and underrewarded I'm sure! Thanks! Kasie McGee ================== Subj: Re:Juvenile Neurobiology Date: 96-11-27 09:48:08 EST From: Gmlandvm Much of the early (clinically oriented work) on development and trainability in the neonate were done by Scott, Fuller and thier co-authors, or by Michael Fox - Of course there are many others - here's a "trick" that I suspect others do as well, but if not, let's keep it between ourselves - SHHH - Get a recent text on canine behavior -e.g. The Domestic Dog by James Serpell, Cambridge University Press 1995 - There are others - Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Behavior - etc. Find the section on Neonatal development (which is often just a summary of the research in the area) and then using the referrences, you can through through the library and read some of the original work - Gary ================== Subj: Re:Juvenile Neurobiology Date: 96-11-27 17:59:06 EST From: Barley37 Gary, I am happy and proud to be part of a profession that has people like you so willing to help others become part of the only way to live! I am sure that Kasie will treasure your help for many years!! Dave B ================== Subj: Re:JAck Russel in puppy clas Date: 96-11-28 01:04:20 EST From: DrFASTTALK Hi, in my puppy class last week, ( it's the first one with the pupppies), a female Jack Russel terrier kept trying to bite her family when they picked her up, whenever they touched her collar and tried to nail me when I was holding her for a recall game we were playing. She was real responsive to me when I had food and would easily let me handle her as long as I could feed her at the same time. There are two boys in the family and I suspect that they are being too physically rough with her. Her potential to do serious damage is great. I think 90%of the advise I gave was great, I showed them how to change her motivation toward them and the collar touch as well as how to use the "no free luch idea" at mealtimes. Kids are not to wrestle with her for now nor to play tug of war. Parents are to teach sit and downs by luring the puppy with food.. Kids and parents are to play recall games in yard with food and toys when the puppy ges near them, and I suspect the pupy will improve a lot. I would like to suggest a Promise collar, but I am not convinced one will fit on her- she is not much bigger than a chihuahua now. The 10% of advise that I am not happy with follows. I was very concerned that she would serious bite them before the program had a chance to be successfull and she made a bad attempt on the father and older teenager while they were in class. I showed the adults how to pick her up by the neck and tell her no- I explained that it was similar to want the mother would do and she responded perfectly when the father did as I suggested. She looked a little startled aand then settled down adn seemed to say- so this is how I should behave- oh- now I get it! I, however, don't feel it was good advise. It will probably work, but its against all I wanat to do philosophically. Plese help. Mona ================== Subj: Re: Happy Thanksgiving!! Date: 96-11-28 09:11:01 EST From: Barley37 I frequent 6-8 of these boards and I am very thankful that, first, they are here; and, secondlt, that they are styaffed by caring and knowledgeable people!! Youse guys are great!! It is nice to to not be alone between the meetings! Thanks! Dave Barley >^..^< ================== Subj: Re:JAck Russel in puppy clas Date: 96-11-28 09:49:04 EST From: Gmlandvm Go with the Promise Halter - The small should fit no problem - Whenever the owners are with the dog leave the halter and a remote leash attached (sell them the whole kit), so that inappropriate behavior (disobedience, mouthing, barking, bite attempts) can be corrected with a pull up and release when struggling stops - It avoids the need for the physical handling that you suggested and unlike physical handling it a) is less likely to cause fear of the owner (and of the hand) b) it decreases the chance of injury and c) it pretty well ensures success. On the other hand, it is essential that the dog learn to tolerate and enjoy all types of handling of all body parts including lifting, so using the reward program you suggested and the halter to ensure success, the owners should gradually progress to all forms and types of handling. I'm seeing a Jack Russel in an hour for a consult - coincidence - maybe - that is less than a year, been through three different obedience classes and is constantly mouthing, biting (mostly in play) but its getting pretty intense. Guess what that dog will be wearing around his head and neck when he leaves here (if he leaves here - joke (I hope)) Gary ================== Subj: Re: Happy Thanksgiving!! Date: 96-11-28 09:52:23 EST From: Gmlandvm Thanks for the good wishes and the support - and Happy Thanksgiving to all you Americans - Its just a plain old Thursday work day up here in Canada (except we can't use Cardiopet) so this isn't overtime work or anything - but I guess I'll have to wait till I get home to find out the NFL scores. Gary ================== Subj: Re:Jack Russel in puppy clas Date: 96-11-28 10:29:04 EST From: DrFASTTALK Thanks for the info. Especially on T DAY! Mona I am on Obed- teach- a listfor teachers of classes. Would you mind if i post my question and answer on the list? Mona ================== Subj: Re:Jack Russel in puppy clas Date: 96-11-28 13:40:34 EST From: Gmlandvm No problem as long as you promise not to make fun of my answer - I'm sensitive that way - Gary ================== Subj: Sneaky Urine marking Date: 96-11-29 11:51:52 EST From: JGeller100 I have been dealing with a 6 yr. old NM Setter x with a history of urinating frequent small amounts on the base of dining room furniture that was moved from another house that had lots of pets. This usually occurs when the owners are home and not in the room. The dog will sneak into the dining room, leave his mark, and go to another area. Dog appears clinically normal, friendly temperment, no other behavior problems. UA is normal. To date the approach has been 1. Restrict access with a gate whenever owners are not home, 2. Negative reinforcement whenever caught in the act, which is rare, 3. Change the use of the area by putting food and water dish at the base of the table, and 4. Remove the offending furniture. The owners would like to be able to keep their furniture, since they are family heirlooms. The area is awkward to gate off when people are home because it is part of the major traffic flow. We talked about "setting the dog up" and scaring the bejesus out of him but the dog is very difficult to trap into the situation. My question: Would this dog be a good candidate for a one months trial of Megace? What other behavior modifiying techniques could you suggest? Thanks for your input. Jon Geller ================== Subj: Re:Jack Russell in puppy cla Date: 96-11-30 08:52:44 EST From: Jeff M VMD I had a 4 month old Peke nail me in one of my puppy classes. It was the second class of a 5 week session. His behavior was much like the Jack Russell - always nipping and resented being touched. I had great success with a technique I call a "Gentle Leader Down" where I gently bring the puppy over on to his back and cradle him in my arms. You hold on just below the chin so that HOPEFULLY they won't bite you. The goal the first few times is to get them to relax while you speak softly and rub their belly. Once they relax you can let them up. The goal is to get to 30 minutes (I have the owner do this during a TV show at home or something) and have the pup relax while you touch their feet, muzzle, etc. This is a slow process, but I think the pups learn to respect and trust their owner without fear ( I think a forceful "Dominance Down" teaches the pup to fear their owner more than anything). With the Peke, I put on gloves and tried it again. At the end of class, when all the other pups had gone, I had the owner try it with gloves on. That week only the adults of the household attempted this, and they were able to have the pup relax (gloveless!) by the second week! They were also doing "nothing in life is free" as well as rewards for good behavior and ignoring the bad behavior. Soon the kids could do this as well, and within two weeks any stranger could handle this pup and cradle him gently on his back. Anyone else use a method like this? ================== Subj: Re:Interdog aggression quest Date: 96-11-30 08:54:41 EST From: Jeff M VMD Thank you for all the input on thyroid levels and its relationship to behavior! Amy ================== Subj: Re: Happy Thanksgiving!! Date: 96-11-30 09:32:55 EST From: IlanaR Dave - thanks for your nice post - now is a good time for us to give thanks to all of you who visit this board and chime in with questions or thoughts. It's thanksgiving, after all :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Jack Russel in puppy clas Date: 96-11-30 09:38:58 EST From: IlanaR Another thought about the puppy - this is tough to suggest without hands-on (for me) but *some* puppies respond well to a forced lateral recumbency down, using the technique you usually use to take a dog down (back to you, holding bottom fore and hind legs, arm pressure on neck). This needs to be demonstrated and practiced with owners so they don't end up with a struggle and lots of mouthing. For amenable puppies owners practice this daily for 30 min. (Carol Lea Benjamin suggests this) when the puppy is calm - not when he's roudy. But some puppies just don't handle the forced restraint well. I agree with Gary about the usefulness of the Gentle Leader (I got so used to calling it a P collar - oh well!) and a small should fit the puppy easily. The other thought I just wanted to throw in is that it seems he's acting very normal for a Jack Russell puppy - not that it's appropriate behavior, but I'd consider it less serious (now - later it would be problem) than I would if a sheltie (eg) were biting in class. Not that it's acceptable - just that the puppy can still turn out to be a great pet, albeit a terrier :). Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Separation Anxiety? Date: 96-11-30 09:45:01 EST From: IlanaR Corey - My opinion - this dog and its new problem should have a full consultation - I doubt drugs alone will help. Even if drugs alone do help - the dog should have a full assessment including its behavior when the owner is home, the schedule, physical set-up of the house, flexibility of owner's life, responsiveness to behavior modification, assessment of generalized anxiety, ruling out other phobias (including barrier frustration in the crate, and perhaps she/he could be confined in a bigger area, etc. Bloodwork/UA pretreatment is needed, then I suggest a "standing" (chronic) anxiolytic such as amitriptyline or buspirone (effectiveness of clomipramine is being tested - jury's out - and effectiveness of fluoxetine/Prozac is extraordinarily anecdotal with few cases - in my opinion it makes more sense to use a drug targeted for anxiety), paired as needed (when dog's alone) with a sedative - eg alprazolam. I hope the owner opts for a referral of some kind? Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Sneaky Urine marking Date: 96-11-30 09:52:08 EST From: IlanaR Jon - this dog might be responsive to short term progestins but the change would probably be temporary - you could try it. There are anectodally safer drugs that might help - but it depends on the dog. Urine marking might be associated with territorial edginess - taking off that edge with an anxiolytic might help. It might also be associated with dominance (which is associated with territorial behavior too) - in which case a mood altering drug like an SSRI might help (this is very speculative and I don't have the cases/results to back it). Behavior mod would target one of these two - increased voice control, indirect increased control in general over this dog. They might temporarily wrap the table legs in cloth that smells different eg washed and dried with a perfumed softener/dryer sheets (eg Bounce) and bound to the table with duct tape (very important equipment in the practice of behavior :)). Although it's awkward to gate the house when people are home, I would convince the owners to do it - it's temporary. That way they could have supervised exposure to the table. Ilana ================== Subj: bull terrier agression Date: 96-12-01 21:19:14 EST From: WarmVet Had a frantic call today from a client with a 4 y/o neutered bull terrier (Ace) who broke the neck of their other dog, a small maltese, while it was enmeshed in fence. Ace rew up with the other dog, has never showed any agression towards the other dog or the 5 cats in the household, or any person. She has had both dogs since they were 7weeks old. The owner said she was trying to free the maltese when it started whimpering and crying. Ace then acted so quickly that she didn't even have time to see it coming, the maltese's neck was broken instantly & expired. The owner said she could not pry the little dog loose, or get the bull terrier to listen to her (he is normally well behaved & obediant). He has never reacted to sounds or noises before. He is teritorial when another dog comes on the property, but has never been in a dogfight. She is now very frightened for her mom's dog, who spends a lot of time with Ace. Is this instinctive behavior? or bull terrier specific behavior to kill a dog that is injured? Any input would be most helpful. Cindy ================== Subj: Neutered male cat Date: 96-12-01 23:51:53 EST From: NeilVet One of my technicians has a 5-6yr old neutered male cat that has recently started exhibiting male sexual type behavior towards inanimate objects such as blankets, and also has started mounting her other male cat. This cat has never shown this type of behavior before, and there are no obvious changes in the environment which might have triggered it. The cat was neutered at a very early age (about 7 weeks according to the owner). Any thoughts on what could suddenly be causing the cat to act like this? Neil ================== Subj: Re:Sneaky Urine marking Date: 96-12-02 00:54:38 EST From: ACN DVM How about Scat Mats around the base of the table? This might be able to give him some aversive conditioning. What have they cleaned the table base (and now the carpet under it) with? (Ilana, this sounds like a good use for that Anti-Icky-Poo stuff that you recommended). Caroline ================== Subj: Re:bull terrier aggression Date: 96-12-02 08:56:22 EST From: IlanaR Cindy - What a tragedy! To answer your question - <<Is this instinctive behavior? or bull terrier specific behavior to kill a dog that is injured?>> it's more the former. My best guess is that he attacked/killed the Maltese for predatory reasons - of course it doesn't mean he suddenly wanted to eat the other dog, but it does demonstrate that some dogs, and this includes terriers as a group, have a strong predatory drive. The increased excitement and distressed vocalizations probably triggered that instinct in Ace and I doubt at that moment that he was being "rational" about recognizing this screaming animal as his pack mate. There really is no evolutionary basis for killing a packmate (which, in wolves, is a relative) that's injured. This kind of behavior, by the way, is what should put a red flag up for parents of neonates - screaming babies can trigger this same reaction in some dogs, so it's always safest to separate or actively supervise dogs and new babies, even if the baby's napping. The owner's concerned about her mother's dog - if it's not a small breed, I'd worry less. There's a difference in motivation and (usually) in intensity when dogs fight because of dominance/territorial conflicts - usually less intense and almost always nonfatal (between males), as opposed to predatory attacks. Hope that helps. Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Neutered male cat Date: 96-12-02 09:00:47 EST From: IlanaR Neil It's hard to say why he'd start the mounting behavior now. If he's otherwise normal and is showing no signs of sexually dimorphic tomcat behavior (odorous urine, spraying) I'd either ignore the behavior or, if it bothers the owner, try to anticipate and redirect it (eg feed the cat that time of day, take out an interactive toy, no prolonged petting, etc.). If the owner is worried or the behavior is truly exaggerated you could run an HCG challenge and do a sex hormone profile to look for extratesticular sources of testosterone - this is unlikely but there is always the (*dim*) possibility of an adrenal tumor, for example. This could just be a newly developed comfort behavior, replacing previous behaviors the owner didn't notice (eg prolonged kneading with claws on bedding). Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Neutered male cat Date: 96-12-02 09:01:33 EST From: IlanaR Oops, forgot to add "penile spines" to the sexually dimorphic changes list - I'm sure Dr. Melese would have reminded me!! :) Ilana ================== Subj: Re:Sneaky Urine marking Date: 96-12-02 09:02:42 EST From: IlanaR Anti-Icky Poo!! Great product - any excuse to use it is welcome. Good suggestion about the scat mats - thanks Caroline Ilana